Kennedy Assasination
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Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Oswald Shot Kennedy
Here I will attempt to explain how it WAS possible for Oswald to fire those shots and wound Kennedy and Conally like he did. I used to believe this was a conspiracy until I took a look at some key evidence.
1. It was indeed possible to fire 3 shots in 5.6 seconds. Oswald had as much as 8 seconds actually. Any one can fire the three shots in 8 seconds, and it is not suprising that Oswald can fire the 3 in 5.6 seconds, considering his Marine training.
2. The "Magic" bullet really wasnt magic at all. The bullet is fired from the sixth floor of the book depository building and hits kennedy below the shoulder blade and exits out the base of his throught. It continues into Conally's back, into his wrist, and into his thigh. Sound amazing? Its not. Conally was not seated directly infront of Kennedy he was seated to the left and slightly lower than Kennedy making the magic bullet not magic at all. Here are two illustrations that should explain it pretty well.
Conspiracy version.
Actual version.
We can see that the tredectory of the bullet is a lot straighter than many people think. The bullet is straight and is then turned slightly as it passes through Conally's ribs. This causes the bullet to exit into his wrist going only 1000 feet per second. It then exits the wrist and hits his thigh, exits that and end up on the floor of the limo. The bullet is not badly damaged but is not in pristine condition either.
Finally, the headshot. The fact that Kennedy's head jerks backward should prove that the shot came from behind. As a bullet penetrates the skull it creates a small hole and slides right in. As it comes out the front it pulls a lot of brain with it. This pull is the force that causes Kennedy's head to jerk backward.
This is good evidence that Oswald WAS able to fire the 3 shots in 5.6 seconds and cause all of the wounds. This is of course open to debate. If you have some good evidence of a second gunman please present it. It would be nice to have a debate on the Kennedy assassination using good evidence.
He was sitting directly in front of him in the video and in photographs. If what your saying is true then why arn't all the investigators of the case all over this?
Also he was shot in the side of the head coming from the front, watch this little video clip.
EDIT: Graphic Video Removed
Quote Skeptic102
"This is good evidence that Oswald WAS able to fire the 3 shots in 5.6 seconds and cause all of the wounds. This is of course open to debate. If you have some good evidence of a second gunman please present it. It would be nice to have a debate on the Kennedy assassination using good evidence."
Yes its very easy to shoot 3 shots off in less than 5 seconds, but the debate is how did he aim perfectly on target every shot in less than 5 seconds.
That photograph is bad because of the angle. It is clearly visible however that Conally is sitting lower than Kennedy. Watch the Zapruder film again and look closely. You will see Conally to the left and slightly lower than Kennedy. Also, the Warren Commission and the FBI investigations all took into account the seating positions...conspiracy theorists do not.
Well, he didnt aim perfect at all. Remember he MISSED the first shot and it ended up hitting the curb. He tried to get a head shot but hit Kennedy at the base of the throught his second try. He was only accurate on his third try. Doesnt sound like incredible accuracy to me.
I think there are other explanations for why his head jerked like that. Number 1 if he is shot from behind his head would jerk toward the shot, as I explained. Number 2, the bullet that hit his neck probably messed it up a bit. Lets hypthesize. The bullet hits him from the book depository. His head jerks back. However his neck is damaged in a way were he cannot jerk toward the book depository. So, the force of the bullet jerks it back like its supposed to, but the damage to the neck causes it to jerk left instead of right.
The force from a rifle shot would throw his head into the direction the bullet was traveling, his head jerking back from a shot coming from the back defies physics. It dosent even make sense. Can you picture shooting someone with a rifle in the head from behind him and then having him fall backwards?
quote skeptic102
"Well, he didnt aim perfect at all. Remember he MISSED the first shot and it ended up hitting the curb. He tried to get a head shot but hit Kennedy at the base of the throught his second try. He was only accurate on his third try. Doesnt sound like incredible accuracy to me."
From the angle he was at in the building and the distance he was from kennedy clearly shows that this guy was either superman with his rifle or there was another gunman. When you fire a rifle you gotta take your finger off the trigger move your hand up to recoil the spent casing after every shot then put your finger back on the trigger than aim at a MOVING target from that distance and hit him and under 5 seconds. That is pretty difficult.
Simple. Its kinda like a push and pull effect. As the bullet hits the head it creates a tiny hole and slides right in. This is a push effect. As it exits the head it pulls a lot of brain with it. This is the pull effect. The bullet pulling the brain out of the head is stronger than the force of the bullet entering the head. I believe this theory was tested and proven to be true.
Yeah, it would be hard for you or me to pull of but this guy was a former marine. He was also practicing a lot with rifles before he took out Kennedy. Also, he had as much as 8 seconds to fire this, so it is not impossible. He had a good angle from the book depository and all he really got was two hits. You dont think a former marine can hit a moving target twice in 5.6 seconds? That is what they are trained to do.
May I see a source of this "Push and Pull" effect, because it's the first ive ever heard of such a thing happening, even in the case of kennedy.
To test the theory they actually had a military soldier whos specific skill was marksman skills with a rifle. He was told to fire at a target that was the same distance as oswald was to kennedy, that was moving, and in the same amount of time oswald "supposevly" fired the 3 shots. The soldier barley got two shots out and both missed.
Duncan Macpherson is a rocket scientist and has extensively studied bullet penetration and the human body. Here is what he has to say about Kennedy's head jerk.
Duncan Macpherson Interview
Here are two filmed experiments that demonstrate this push and pull effect.
Video Test 1
Video Test 2
complete nonsense!!! the reason the bullet was called the "magic" bullet is not because it wounded two people but because it failed to deform as any normal bullet would upon encountering resistance and friction--the bullet that was claimed to have pierced kennedy and connally retained its form without the slightest alteration to its shape and form--the bullet that is called the "magic bullet" is a complete farce and did not pass through one target much less two--explain how a bullet can retain its shape after impacting two targets-then you will have demonstrated the plausibility of the official story--until then you are doing nothing more than what national geographic does with 9/11--repeat a lie without offering a shred of evidence over and over and over and...
Duncan Macpherson is a rocket scientist and has extensively studied bullet penetration and the human body. Here is what he has to say about Kennedy's head jerk.
Duncan Macpherson Interview
Here are two filmed experiments that demonstrate this push and pull effect.
Video Test 1
Video Test 2
[right][snapback]829174[/snapback][/right]
"The dynamics of this kind of impact were demonstrated independently in testing by Dr. Luis Alvarez and by Dr. John K. Lattimer et al."
The first video didn't work for me. But the second video clearly shows that from his point of view he aimed and hit the right most part of the fruit at an odd angle so of course it's going to go left(mind you from his point of view) but to our frame of reference it makes it look like its going backward.
I thought the topic said there would be good evidence of the lone gunman theory... where?
Heres what the bullet actually looked like. One of the main reasons it didnt deform more is because it dramatically slowed after it hit Conally's ribs.
Well heres a joke for anyone who plays Resdent Evil: Leon Shot Kennedy!
But seriously Oswald was a patsy.
oswald did'nt have the smarts to pull this off all by himself!was he part of it?yes.was he the brains behind it?not likely.he had help from some powerful people in the mob,and maybe a few former highups in our government.
Some things to point out, Skeptic102..
In your first post, the bullet trajectory and positions of JFK and Connally are inaccurate, as can be seen in the Zapruder film. Connally was not twisting his torso to the right, in front of JFK, at the time claimed to be when the impact occurred. Nor was he well to the left in front of JFK in the limo. Look at these frames...
It's obvious Connally, in front of JFK in the limo, is not aligned towards the left side of JFK. And when he actually does turn to the right, it is after he is hit, and even has his left hand resting on the top edge of the right side door, which shows he is not sitting toward the center of the limo, but rather toward the right side of it.
Also, there was an entry hole in JFK's back, at least 5-6" down his back from his neck line, and to the right side of his spine. This bullet was on a downward trajectory, coming from the right side of the limo, if it actually came from the 6th floor of the TSBD. It could not have moved upwards and to the left within JFK's body, not hitting any bone, then forward as it exited through JFK's throat, then gone downwards into Connally's lower back, shattering his ribs, exited his chest downwards, through his wrist, shattering his wrist bone , and lodge in his right thigh - and somehow, then end up on a vacant stretcher by itself in Parkland Hospital.
The only flaw in the bullet was in the photo you posted - a slight flattening at the base (bottom) of the bullet. The nose and all the rest of the jacket of the bullet are virtually pristine. After shattering bone two times? And after creating SEVEN separate wounds on two people? Not a chance.
Of course it's also" possible" that earth will be invaded by martians...but do we really believe that? Of course not.
Oswald could have been an informant to the FBI which would explain why they were visiting him before the assassination.
Oswald himself was assassinated to ensure that there would be no public hearings between Oswald and Jackie Kennedy.
Johnson and FBI director conspired together to make Oswald the lone gunman no matter what.
Navy forged the Bethesda Naval Hospital autopsy photos and hid the real evidence...Kennedys head was half blown away but in the early cover-up the autopsy photos shown in Time-Life were not indicative of such a grievous wound...they showed a neat little hole in the back of the head to cover up the real event.
Now...I have seen the latest Zapruder Video that was digitally re-mastered by the National Archives...it clearly shows the limo driver(Secret Service agent William Greer) looking back twice...on the second look behind him he is slowing the car down and at the same time pulling an object from his jacket and points it at Kennedys head which is in Jackies lap(head down leaning to right) and then half his head disappears. After that the limo driver spins back to the front and begins to take off. He also lied to the Warren Commision about his actions.
Our right-wing half of the government killed Mr. Kennedy, heads of corporations who didnt agrea with his policies, hawks in the military...explains why military covered up the autopsy, and the biggest culprits in the oil industry like Nelson Rockefeler, Bush family friend Clint Murchison...this man held the reigns of Lyndon Johnson.
Hey spycat - do you have a link for the new digitized Zapruder film? I heard there was one out there.... Thx, dude.
This theory has been debunked. Watch this again very, very carefully and take it frame by frame. The 'gun' you see the driver pull is actually a reflection off of the top of the head of the man sitting next to the driver. I know it sounds silly but watch it frame, by frame. You will see that it is a reflection that is in the shape of a gun. Really all the driver does is look at Kennedy.
Here is more proof.
This is a picture of Kennedy's limo before the assassination. Note the seating arangement. Conally is sitting lower and slightly to the left-front of kennedy!
Here you can see Kennedy's head explode from the top and forward something that would have been impossible if he was hit from the angle of the grassy knol. NOTE: I know this pic is graffic but it is an important piece of evidence is solving this case.
This photo shows that Kennedy's head exploded from the top. This, combined with the push and pull effect earlier demonstated, is evidence that JFK was hit from behind. Using the push and pull effect (or jet blast effect) his head would have jerked differently if he was hit from the grassy knol. His head would have jerked toward the shot and therefore forward, but we see his head jerk backward, indicative that the bullet came from behind.
Yes, I know, the lone gunman theoy is a boring and mundane explanation. One lone commie takes out the president and Jack Ruby, out of love for kennedy, kills Oswald. Is that really so hard to believe? There is not always a conspiracy, remember that. One should never asume that a conspiracy exists but rather they should investigate the case with an open mind. After much investigation many people, including myself have concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.
The camera is taking the photo from the left side of the limo - from this angle, Jackie is in line with the center of the front windshield, but she was obviously not sitting in the center of the limo. She and JFK are leaning to the right as they are looking well to the right hand side of the limo. Look again at my post with the Zapruder frames - that is how they were actually aligned at the time of the shooting.
The "jet blast effect" is totally incomparable to how a head reacts to a high velocity bullet. Have you ever been in combat? If you haven't, ask someone who has what happens when a bullet hits somebody in the head. If you hit the front of the head, the head snaps back. If you hit the back of the head, it snaps forward. Basic laws of physics. The forward velocity of a bullet impact drives the object it strikes backwards - it's the directional force causing the motion at the exact moment of impact.
in the zapruder film you can actually see the driver turn around and shoot jfk-
-when the car emerges from behind the sign jfk is shot(from behind) and you can see him grab his throat and jacky looks into his face to see whats wrong thats when the driver turns around once to take aim then again and finishes the job and jacky,upon seeing this,tries to jump out the back of the moving vehicle--note that as soon as his heads "explodes" the driver can be seen turning his body "back" to the normal drive position --
Wow I never considered the driver to be the second shooter. I always thought it was from near the grassy knoll. That's a pretty powerful pistol to blow his head off like that. Everyone in the car wouldve definetly saw and heard it not to mention he people on the street seeing it. But from the way the video is it kinda does look like he shoot him. Hmmm weird.
That was in front of thousands and no one noticed the driver shoot him. Don't buy it.
The 'gun' you see is just a reflection off of the passengers head. The driver looks at kennedy and the reflection kinda makes it look like hes holding a gun but hes not. Watch it closely and you will notice that this 'gun' is just a reflection.
It wasn't the driver. The evidence (angle of entrance and exit wounds) doesn't make sense if it was. Besides, he was so close to Kennedy his face likely would have shattered.
Oswald was not a good enough shot to take anyone out. And as for the 3 shots being in so many seconds, with that particular weapon they had expert riflemen test the theory and even they could'nt reproduce what Oswald supposedly did. Oswald was a scapegoat for someone or some people and I doubt we will ever find out the truth.
I was captivated at first then I noticed that the drivers so called gun was actually the top of the head of the passenger on the drivers right. It damn sure looked real to me at first.
i never mentioned a gun being visible--i am surprised to find some of you actually seeing one--the flash is a little unusual--however connally's reaction is what is so suspect--notice his arm jerk immediatly as the video starts and jfk takes the first shot implying that it was that first shot that struck him--now watch what he does after being shot--he turns his body completely side ways creating space and cover for the driver!--the view from the start of the video shows a considerable gap between connally and the person next to him and the way he contorted his body sure would provide even more access--also the fact that the shot startled both connally and the passenger to his left is evident as neither of them are actually watching the president as the final shot is delivered yet they both jump down in a flash
One thing for certain - the driver was involved. After JFK and Connally had both clearly been shot, which the driver sees when he first turns around. Instead of speeding off immediately after seeing this, the driver again turns around to look behind at JFK, and slows (some witnesses say stopped) the limo, until the head shot, with the driver still turned around. Only then does he speed off. That in itself is grounds for his involvement.
Another thing I haven't seen discussed - why is there a white car in front of the limo as it goes towards the underpass? The motorcade was led by JFK's limo, as the Zapruder film, and other films and photos show. Where did this white car come from? The limo almost comes up to its rear bumper by the end of the Zapruder film. And why does the limo driver, by this point, not veer to the left side of the road to pass by this very slow moving (if even moving) vehicle. He would have to slow right down as shown because he is so close to the back of the white car. The film seems to show him intentionally staying on the right side of the road, and directly behind the white car.
These are frames z444, z451, and z464.
I realize that this topic hasn't been posted on for a while but I thought I would add my two cents. It is very obvious that there was a conspiracy and the driver was responsible for the fatal headshot. Those who say the gun is a reflection off of Kellermans head are not looking in the right place. the gun is not raised that high, its about chest height. It is also worth noting that the Zupruder film itself has been tampered with to hide what really happened. all witnesses say that the limo slowed down to almost a complete stop as the fatal shot occurred, the film does not show this. you can also see the heads of the connally's snapping back and forth at impossible speeds, also right after the headshot, Greer and Kellerman turn back around at superhuman speeds. they literally become blurred because they turn around so fast.
Here is a link to the Zapruder film, notice that Greer brings the gun up about just under chest height, in front of Kellermans head, nowhere near the reflection on his head.
Zapruder film
Scroll down a little bit here and you can clearly see the drivers gun comes nowhere near the reflection of Kellermans head.link
JFK Speech on Secret Societies and Freedom of the Press
Anyone who relies on the movie JFK as a basis for their conspiracy theory argument clearly hasn't researched this subject thoroughly enough.
I believe Oswald was the lone gunman. I've seen no evidence to suggest otherwise. I also think that believing the driver shot him is ridiculous. All the police, secret servincemen, and spectators surrounding the limo, and you seriously think no one saw the driver shoot him? C'mon, think about it. Who would possibly expect to get away with that ridiculous plan?
John F Kennedy Assassination Secret Service Stand Down
JUST THE FACTS: ESTABLISHED FACTS ABOUT THE JFK ASSASSINATION THAT POINT TO CONSPIRACY
Michael T. Griffith
1998
@All Rights Reserved
Third Edition
With all the controversy surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, it might be somewhat surprising to learn that there are many acknowledged facts about the case, facts that are so well established they aren't disputed by anyone who has seriously studied the case, and that point to conspiracy. Discussion about the JFK assassination usually centers on a specific area of the case. Sometimes, in focusing on a particular issue, we forget or overlook the obvious things. The acknowledged facts alone indicate the assassination resulted from a conspiracy, and that it was followed by an extensive cover-up. What are these facts? Here are SOME of them:
* J. Edgar Hoover informed Lyndon Johnson during a phone conversation the day after the assassination that someone had been impersonating Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged single assassin, at the Soviet embassy in Mexico City. (The transcript of the conversation was among the documents recently released by the Assassination Records Review Board [ARRB]. Also, in light of recent disclosures, there can be no credible doubt that the "Oswald" who called the Soviet embassy from the Cuban embassy in Mexico City on 9/28/63 was NOT the real Oswald.)
* Silvia Odio, the American-educated daughter of distinguished, prominent Cuban parents, gave testimony to federal investigators which, if true, would constitute strong evidence there was a conspiracy to kill President Kennedy. Mrs. Odio testified that two anti-Castro Cubans and a man named "Leon Oswald" visited her apartment in Dallas during the last week of September 1963. However, according to the Warren Commission (WC), the real Oswald was ending his stay in New Orleans and setting off for Mexico City at this time. The real Oswald would have required private transportation in order to visit Mrs. Odio's apartment. Oswald did not own a car and did not drive. In other words, if he traveled to Dallas to visit Mrs. Odio, he must have done so with help. Within forty-eight hours of the visit, Mrs. Odio reported, one of the Cubans phoned her and said (1) "Leon Oswald" was an ex-Marine and "an expert marksman" who was "kind of nuts," and (2) "Leon Oswald" said anti-Castro Cubans should have shot Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs disaster, that they should "do something like that" (i.e., shoot Kennedy). Mrs. Odio and her sister said "Leon Oswald" bore a striking resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald. The House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) concluded Mrs. Odio's testimony was credible and truthful. A senior WC staffer wrote the following in an internal Commission memo:
Mrs. Odio has checked out thoroughly. . . . The evidence is unanimously favorable. . . . [Mrs. Odio] is the most significant witness linking Oswald to the anti-Castro Cubans.
* In April 1963 an inflammatory flyer was sent to Cuban exiles in Miami which said in part:
Only through one development will you Cuban patriots ever live again in your homeland as freemen . . . if an inspired Act of God should place in the White House within weeks a Texan known to be a friend of all Latin Americans.
The flyer was signed "a Texan who resents the Oriental influence that has come to control, to degrade, to pollute and enslave his own people."
* On 10/1/63, Ernesto Castellanos, a Cuban exile who took part in the Bay of Pigs invasion, was secretly tape-recorded at a John Birch Society meeting in Dallas saying that he and other anti-Castroites were "going to give him [Kennedy] the works when he gets in Dallas." (The tape was discussed in an 8/14/78 article in the DALLAS MORNING NEWS and, according to the article, was made available to the HSCA.)
* Within days of the assassination, the Secret Service learned from an informant that an anti-Castro Cuban activist in the Chicago area, Homer S. Echevarria, in a discussion about an illegal arms sale a short time before the President was killed, said that "his group had 'plenty of money' and that his backers would proceed [with the arms deal] 'AS SOON AS WE TAKE CARE OF KENNEDY.'" This information prompted the agent in charge of the Chicago field office to prepare a memorandum in which he said Echevarria's group "may have a connection with the JFK assassination." Echevarria belonged to the 30th of November Group. Another member of this same group was Rolando Masferrer, who relayed money between Alpha 66 and Mafia kingfish Carlos Marcello. Former HSCA chief counsel G. Robert Blakey, along with many researchers, suspects Marcello was one of the figures behind the assassination. Alpha 66 was a violent, radical anti-Castro group that had a safe house in Dallas at the time of the assassination. Many anti-Castro Cuban exiles hated Kennedy because they believed he was responsible for their defeat at the Bay of Pigs.
* Dallas oil baron and extreme right-winger H. L. Hunt reportedly had similar wishes for President Kennedy. According to German journalist Joachim Joesten, during a party held prior to the President's trip to Dallas several witnesses heard Hunt remark that there was "no way left to get those traitors out of our government except by shooting them out," apparently in reference to the President and his brother, Robert Kennedy. In a speech in Houston, Texas, given prior to the assassination, Hunt said the Kennedy administration was a "Communist government." Hunt reportedly had ties to U.S. intelligence, especially to the CIA.
* Joseph Milteer, a wealthy radical right-wing leader, told a Miami police informant named William Somersett, on tape, fourteen days before the assassination, that a hit on Kennedy was "in the working." (The tape can be heard on the five-hour documentary THE MEN WHO KILLED KENNEDY, and a transcript of the tape is available in several books on the assassination.)
* Somersett reported that Milteer called him from Dallas two hours before the assassination and said President Kennedy would be in Dallas that day and that Kennedy would not be visiting Miami again.
* Somersett reported that soon after the assassination Milteer told him that Oswald had been framed and that there was no need to worry about Oswald because he didn't know anything.
* Rose Cheramie, a prostitute who had contact with underworld figures, told a doctor and a police officer two days before the assassination that Kennedy was going to be killed in Dallas. Louisiana State Police lieutenant Francis Fruge went to Eunice, Louisiana, to pick up Miss Cheramie, who had been injured when she was involved in a car accident and/or when she was struck by some men at a bar.
According to Lt. Fruge, Miss Cheramie told him on the way to the hospital that she "was going to, number one, pick up some money, pick up her baby, and to kill Kennedy." Lt. Fruge told the HSCA that when Cheramie related her story she appeared to be "quite lucid." According to Lt. Fruge, Miss Cheramie told him she had been riding in a car with two "Italian-looking" men. When Lt. Fruge questioned her later, she told him the two men traveling with her were from Miami and were going to Dallas to kill the President.
During the 1967-1969 Jim Garrison investigation into the assassination, Lt. Fruge went to the bar where Miss Cheramie had last been seen before she was injured. Fruge reported that he showed the owner of the bar some photographs and mug shots to identify, and that the bar owner chose the photos of a Cuban exile, Sergio Arcacha Smith, and another Cuban Fruge believed to be named Osanto. (Arcacha Smith is known to Kennedy assassination investigators as an anti-Castro Cuban refugee who had been active in 1961 as the head of the New Orleans Cuban Revolutionary Front. At that time, he befriended anti-Castro activist and rabid Kennedy-hater David Ferrie. Ferrie and Arcacha Smith were also believed to have had ties with New Orleans organized crime figure Carlos Marcello.)
Lt. Fruge took Miss Cheramie to the State Hospital in Jackson, Louisiana. Dr. Victor Weiss, who worked as a resident physician at the hospital at the time, stated in a 1988 documentary produced by noted columnist Jack Anderson that Cheramie told him the "word was out in the New Orleans underworld that the contract on Kennedy had been let." Miss Cheramie, said Weiss, was absolutely certain Kennedy was going to be shot, and kept insisting on it over and over again to the doctors and nurses who treated her. In 1978, Dr. Weiss told the HSCA that the doctor who had originally treated Miss Cheramie, Dr. Bowers, told him that she had stated to him, Dr. Bowers, before the assassination, that Kennedy was going to be killed. In addition, Dr. Weiss said Miss Cheramie told him she had worked for Jack Ruby. Lt. Fruge reported that Miss Cheramie told him the same thing.
* A retired El Paso policeman, Jim Bundren, has told researchers that in late September 1963, an Army Intelligence officer who had been arrested and taken into custody appeared to have foreknowledge of the assassination. The intelligence officer was Richard Case Nagell. Nagell reportedly also worked for the CIA at times, and a 1969 military intelligence "Agent Report" states that Nagell "conducted an inquiry into the activities of Lee Harvey Oswald" in August and September of 1963.
Nagell was arrested for walking into an El Paso bank and firing some shots into the ceiling on September 20, 1963. Nagell claimed he was merely trying to get arrested for his own safety because he believed he was being followed. Jim Bundren is one of the police officers who escorted Nagell during one of his hearings. Here is what Bundren reported to a researcher during a taped interview:
I was sitting next to Nagell at one of his preliminary hearings. I don't remember the exact date, but I know it was before the Kennedy assassination. Nagell looked over at me and said, "You're a pretty good cop, aren't you? You know, if I didn't want you to, you'd never have caught me."
I said, "You didn't want to rob that bank, did you?" He just looked at me for a moment. He's got that look that's unusual, the penetrating eyes, that scar down one side of his face. And he says, "What makes you say that?"
I said, "I saw the shots you fired in the bank. With your Army training and everything, I just felt like maybe it was some kind of a diversionary tactic."
Nagell just smiled and said, "WELL, I'M GLAD YOU CAUGHT ME. I REALLY DON'T WANT TO BE IN DALLAS. I said, "What do you mean by that?" "YOU'LL SEE SOON ENOUGH," he said. (emphasis added)
* A CIA document released in 1977 states that Jean Soutre, a notorious French assassin with reported links to the Mafia and the CIA, was in Dallas on the day of the assassination. The document also says Soutre was picked up by U.S. authorities in Texas and deported within forty-eight hours of the shooting.
* During the forty days preceding the assassination, Oswald had little time to target practice.
* When asked to comment on Oswald's last rifle score as a Marine, Lt. Col. A. G. Folsom said Oswald's score of "Marksman" was indicative of someone who was "a rather poor shot."
* Oswald's best score in the Marines was just two points above the minimum required for the middle of three qualification levels, "Sharpshooter," and this was after weeks of practice and instruction.
* Nearly all of Oswald's fellow Marines who were asked to comment on his shooting ability expressed the view that he was not a very good shot. Several of them, in fact, said he was a very poor shot. (And apparently none of them described him as an excellent shot.)
* A WC staffer (Wesley Liebeler) stated in an internal Commission memo that critical persons would not take the Commission's claims about Oswald's marksmanship seriously.
* Monty Lutz, a former member of the HSCA's firearms panel and an expert rifleman in his own right, stated during the 1986 mock Oswald trial sponsored by a British television company that to his knowledge no one had ever duplicated Oswald's alleged shooting feat.
* The WC leaned toward the view that its alleged lone gunman did not fire until frame 210 of the Zapruder film. If the supposed single assassin didn't fire until Z210, then he would have had between 4.8 and 5.6 seconds to score two hits out of three shots at a moving target using a bolt-action rifle.
* The only way WC supporters can "expand" the alleged lone gunman's firing time from 5.8 to 8.2/8.4 seconds is to assume that he fired at around Z160 and that he completely missed, not only Kennedy, but the entire limousine. (The limousine was less than 140 feet from the sixth-floor gunman at Z160.)
* The WC expressed strong skepticism about the idea that its lone gunman would have missed the limousine with his first and closest shot.
* The world-class, Master-rated riflemen who took part in the WC's rifle tests expressed considerable criticism of the alleged murder weapon. They did not view it as a high quality rifle, and they found its bolt to be difficult and its trigger pull to be rather odd.
* In the 1967 CBS rifle test, which was designed to test "the Warren Commission's version of the shooting," not one of the eleven participating expert marksmen scored at least two hits out of three shots on his first attempt. Seven of them failed to do so on ANY of their attempts. Oswald would have had only one attempt.
* Oswald's notebook contained the word "microdots," a common spy technique of photographically reducing information to a small dot.
* An unregistered Minox camera was found among Oswald's belongings. Cameras of this type were reportedly used in spy work. Kurt Lohn, who was formerly in charge of Minox distribution in New York City, informed newsman Earl Golz of the DALLAS MORNING NEWS that the serial number of the Minox camera found among Oswald's possessions did NOT exist among any Minox cameras distributed for commercial sale in the United States. The FBI tried to have the Dallas police change their reports so as to remove the references to the camera and to replace them with the entry of "light meter."
* The day after the assassination a call was intercepted in Dallas between Ruth Paine's home and Michael Paine's office. In the FBI report on this conversation, it states that a male and female were talking, that the male said he did not feel Oswald was responsible for the crime (though he felt Oswald had done the shooting), and that the male then said, "We both know who is responsible." Ruth Paine was the one who arranged for Oswald to work at the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). It was also Ruth Paine who arranged for Marina Oswald to live with her while Marina and Lee were separated. Michael Paine held a security clearance and worked for a defense contractor.
* When Oswald applied for a tourist card at the Mexican consulate in New Orleans, the man in line in front of him, was William Gaudet, who worked for the CIA. Oswald's tourist card was number 24085; Gaudet's was 24084. Eight days after the assassination the FBI claimed there was no record of who had obtained the tourist card before Oswald's. This claim was proven false in 1975 when, due to a bureaucratic blunder, the name of the card's owner was revealed.
* Gaudet told the HSCA that on one occasion he saw Oswald talking on a street corner with Guy Banister, an ultra-conservative former FBI agent with ties to the anti-Castro movement and the CIA.
* Several of Oswald's "Fair Play for Cuba" handbills were stamped with the address of 544 Camp Street. This was the location where Banister and the Cuban Revolutionary Council, a militant anti-Castro group set up by the CIA, maintained their offices.
* According to an FBI report, G. W. Gill, an attorney for Mafia kingfish Carlos Marcello and Santos Trafficante, told David Ferrie's roommate, Layton Martens, that when Oswald was arrested by the Dallas police, Oswald was carrying a library card with Ferrie's name on it. The report was based on an interview with Martens himself. David Ferrie worked for Marcello, was involved with CIA-backed anti-Castro Cubans, and was a fanatical opponent of President Kennedy. On one occasion, Ferrie had to be removed from the podium in the middle of a speech for making virulent, inflammatory anti-Kennedy remarks. An FBI report observed that on occasion Ferrie had said Kennedy "ought to be shot."
* According to investigators from New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison's office, Mrs. Doris Eames, a neighbor of Oswald's, told them that Ferrie came by her house after the assassination asking if she had any information regarding Oswald's library card. Mrs. Eames told British investigative journalist Anthony Summers in 1978 that Ferrie was so nervous he appeared nearly out of his mind. That same year, Mrs. Jesse Garner, Oswald's former landlady, told an HSCA investigator that Ferrie visited her home and asked if she had come across the library card Oswald had used when he was living in one of her apartments.
* In 1975, Penn Jones, a leading assassination researcher, received an anonymously mailed envelope from Mexico City which contained two letters, one of which was a copy of a handwritten letter signed "Lee Harvey Oswald." The letter is dated November 8, 1963, and is addressed to a "Mr. Hunt." The note reads as follows:
I would like information concerning my position.
I am asking only for information. I am suggesting that we discuss the matter fully before any steps are taken by me or anyone else.
Thank you.
Lee Harvey Oswald
Handwriting experts retained by the HSCA were unable to come to a firm conclusion about the authenticity of the note. However, three private handwriting experts consulted by the DALLAS MORNING NEWS unanimously concluded the writing was Oswald's.
The note was mailed from Mexico City. Some researchers have suggested the note was addressed to E. Howard Hunt, a former CIA officer who has made no secret of his hatred for Kennedy, while others have suggested it was addressed to oil tycoon H. L. Hunt, who is discussed below.
* On November 9, 1963, Oswald wrote a letter to the Soviet embassy in Washington, D.C., in which he said, "I could not take a chance on requesting a new visa unless I used my real name, so I returned to the United States."
* Jack Ruby killed Oswald while Oswald was being transferred in broad daylight, in the middle of the day, in the basement of the Dallas police station, which was supposed to be a secure area.
* The HSCA concluded Ruby's killing of Oswald was not "spontaneous," and that Ruby probably entered the basement with assistance.
* The HSCA found what it viewed as compelling evidence that Ruby had extensive ties with the Mafia. For the first few weeks after the shooting, Ruby was commonly characterized as a gangster, as a man who was involved with the Mafia. On 11/26/63, four days after the assassination, the CHICAGO TRIBUNE ran a story on Ruby's Mafia activity and connections in that city.
* Mafia man Johnny Roselli reportedly met with Ruby twice in the two months leading up to the assassination. Roselli was involved with Mafia kingfish Santos Trafficante and Sam Giancana in the CIA-Mafia assassination plots against Fidel Castro.
* Dallas police sergeant Patrick Dean, who was reportedly close to the city's Mob boss, Joe Civello, failed a lie detector test with regard to his reassignment of police guards away from the elevators and a door to a stairway next to the stairs just before Ruby shot Oswald.
* Former Dallas police officer Billy Grammer has reported that on the night before Ruby killed Oswald, he received a call from Ruby at police headquarters warning that Oswald would be shot the following evening. Grammer says the caller did not identify himself, but that he is sure the voice was Jack Ruby's. Grammer claims he was well acquainted with Ruby. Grammer further reports that Ruby seemed to be aware of all the plans to transfer on Sunday from police headquarters to the Dallas County Jail, that he knew about the decoy vehicle assignment, and was aware of the approximate time the transfer would occur.
* Two WC staffers wrote the following in an internal Commission memo:
In short, we believe that the possibility exists, based on evidence already available, that Ruby was involved in illegal dealings with Cuban elements who might have had contact with Oswald.
* According to an 11/25/63 Associated Press report, William Crowe, an entertainer who had performed at Ruby's Carousel Club, told an AP reporter he was "positive" he had seen Oswald in the club. DALLAS MORNING NEWS reporter Kent Biffle said Crowe told him the same thing several days later.
* Karen Carlin, who had been a dancer at Ruby's club, told FBI agent Roger Warner on 11/24/63 that "she was under impression that Lee Oswald, Jack Ruby, and other individuals unknown to her, were involved in a plot to assassinate President Kennedy."
* Another Ruby dancer, Janet Conforto, told Dallas newsmen shortly after the assassination that she had seen Oswald in Ruby's club. Yet another Ruby dancer, Kathy Kay, told the DALLAS TIMES HERALD the same thing in 1975.
* Four Dallas deputy constables told the DALLAS MORNING NEWS in 1976 that shortly after the assassination they examined a box of handwritten notes and other papers in the Dallas County Courthouse that linked Ruby to Oswald.
* In 1990 the Attorney General of Texas, Jim Mattox, announced that his mother had told him she once saw Ruby and Oswald eating dinner together in the restaurant where she worked.
* The Secret Service failed to employ a number of standard protection procedures for the Dallas motorcade. The HSCA found the SS's protective measures for the motorcade were deficient. Among other things, the Committee said:
Surprisingly, the security measure used in the prior motorcades during the same Texas visit show that the deployment of motorcycles in Dallas by the Secret Service may have been UNIQUELY INSECURE. (Emphasis added)
In film footage of other presidential motorcades, it is seen that police motorcycle escorts rode on both sides and in front of the limousine during those events, forming a shield around the car and making it harder for a potential assassin or assassins to shoot the president. This was not done during the Dallas motorcade, and in fact security for the Dallas motorcade was reduced the day before the assassination.
* One or more senior military officers chose three poorly qualified, inexperienced military doctors to perform President Kennedy's autopsy, when much more capable and experienced doctors were readily available.
* Dr. James Humes, the chief autopsy pathologist, burned the original autopsy report shortly after hearing Oswald was dead, and without making a photographic copy of it.
* The HSCA's medical panel concluded the autopsy on the President was inadequate. Private forensic experts have said the autopsy was a severely flawed post-mortem examination.
* One of the autopsy pathologists said under oath in the Clay Shaw trial in 1969 that a senior military officer prevented him from performing a crucial autopsy procedure.
* A role of film taken during the autopsy by a medical corpsman was seized and destroyed by a Secret Service agent.
* Important photographs taken during the autopsy, some of which were apparently mentioned by one of the autopsy pathologists, are missing. (The medical witness interviews conducted by the ARRB leave no doubt about this fact.)
* Dr. John Ebersole, the radiologist at the autopsy, told HSCA investigators that a sizable fragment of occipital bone was missing from Kennedy's head and arrived late that night from Dallas. The occiput is located at the back of the skull. Yet, the autopsy photographs of the back of the head, which were supposedly taken at or before the start of the autopsy, show the occipital region intact. (Many researchers believe the autopsy photos have been altered.)
* Over forty witnesses, many of them trained medical personnel, who saw President Kennedy's head wounds, said the large defect was in the right rear part of the head, in the right occipital-parietal region. A large wound in the back of the head indicates a shot from the front.
* Two federal agents who attended the autopsy told the ARRB that the autopsy photos of the back of the head were not accurate, and that they recalled seeing a large defect in the right rear part of the skull. The agents suggested a flap of scalp was pulled over the right-rear defect before the photos were taken.
* Dr. J. Thornton Boswell, one of the autopsy pathologists, told HSCA investigators that the rear entry wound was right next to the external occipital protuberance and that part of that wound was contained in a fragment of bone that did not arrive from Dallas until late that night.
* During an interview with HSCA investigators, Dr. Finck questioned how one of the alleged autopsy photos of the back of the head had been established as having been taken at the autopsy.
* Dr. George Burkley, the President's personal doctor, communicated through his attorney to the HSCA's chief counsel that he was aware of information that proved there must have been more than one person involved in the assassination. Dr. Burkley volunteered to disclose this information to the Committee. Dr. Burkley saw the President's body at Parkland Hospital in Dallas and during the autopsy. The letter that Dr. Burkley's attorney sent to the HSCA at Dr. Burkley's request was released by the ARRB. To date no record has been found that the HSCA sought to obtain the information Dr. Burkley offered to provide.
* The WC said the wound in President Kennedy's back was at the base of the neck. Dr. Humes placed the wound in this location, at the base of the neck, in the Rydberg Navy medical drawing. The HSCA, on the other hand, placed the wound nearly two inches lower than where it appears in the Rydberg drawing. The President's death certificate, which is marked "verified," places the wound at the third thoracic vertebra (T3). On the night of the autopsy, Dr. Boswell prepared an autopsy face sheet diagram in which he placed the wound at or near T3. The bullet holes in the back of the President's shirt and coat place the wound at or near T3. Several witnesses who saw the body said the back wound was well below the neck. One of those witnesses was Dr. Ebersole, who said the wound was at T4. Three federal agents who saw the body drew wound diagrams for the HSCA. Those diagrams were recently released, and all three place the back wound near T3. The current single-bullet theory, which is the cornerstone of the lone-gunman scenario, is based on the assumption that the back wound was no lower than where the HSCA placed it, that is, no lower than T1, and that Kennedy was leaning 20-25 degrees forward. If the single-bullet theory is invalid, then there had to be more than one gunman.
* The chief of the HSCA's forensic pathology panel, Dr. Michael Baden, admitted the back wound was slightly BELOW the throat wound. (He went on to claim that the bullet still could have come from the TSBD's sixth-floor window if Kennedy had been leaning markedly forward when the missile struck. But no photo or footage shows Kennedy leaning as far forward as Baden and others have claimed he was leaning.)
* Dr. David Mantik, a highly qualified radiation oncologist and physicist, studied the original autopsy x-rays and photographs at the National Archives, and concluded no bullet could have gone straight from the back wound to the throat wound without smashing right through the spine or without causing massive lung damage. The x-rays show no such damage to the spine or lungs.
* The two persons who claimed to have found CE 399, which is the so-called "magic bullet" that allegedly went through Kennedy and Connally, both said the missile had a pointed tip, whereas CE 399 has a round tip.
* On the day of the assassination, Dr. Malcolm Perry, the surgeon who performed the tracheostomy on the President's throat, said twice on national television that the throat wound was an entrance wound. When interviewed a short time later, he was asked about the report that the alleged sole assassin fired from a building which was to the rear of the limousine. Dr. Perry replied by suggesting the President must have been turned toward the building when the bullet struck his throat.
* Dr. Charles Carrico, who saw the throat wound before the tracheostomy was performed over it, described the wound as a "penetrating wound" in his 11/22/63 medical report.
* On the night of the autopsy, all three of the autopsy pathologists concluded, after extensive, prolonged probing, both with fingers and with a surgical probe, that the back wound had no point of exit. About half of the probing was done after the chest organs had been removed. James Jenkins, one of the medical technicians at the autopsy who witnessed the procedure, has reported he could see the surgical probe pushing against the lining of the chest cavity. Says Jenkins,
I remember looking inside the chest cavity and I could see the probe . . . through the pleura [the lining of the chest cavity] . . . . You could actually see where it was making an indentation . . . where it was pushing the skin up. . . . There was no entry into the chest cavity. . . . No way that that [the bullet] could have exited in the front because it was then low in the chest cavity. . . .
* The NEW YORK TIMES, on 12/18/63, quoted a source it believed was familiar with the autopsy as saying that the bullet which struck the President in the back "penetrated two to three inches." Five weeks later, the TIMES said the bullet "hit the President in the back of his right shoulder, SEVERAL INCHES BELOW THE COLLAR LINE. THAT BULLET LODGED IN HIS SHOULDER" (emphasis added). In accordance with this report, the WASHINGTON POST reported on 12/18/63 that during the autopsy a bullet "WAS FOUND DEEP IN HIS SHOULDER" (emphasis added).
* Two medical technicians at the autopsy have stated that a bullet rolled out from the area of the President's back when the body was removed from the casket prior to the autopsy. One of the med-techs said the bullet rolled out from the back, while the other says it rolled out from the sheets. A third med-tech from the autopsy has said he remembers personnel at the autopsy talking that night about a bullet that had fallen from the sheets.
* Admiral David P. Osborne, who was in attendance at the autopsy, reported that a bullet rolled out from the "clothing" that was wrapped around the President's body, and that he actually handled the missile. The HSCA asserted that Osborne "thought" he saw a bullet roll out, but that he later said he wasn't sure when told no one else at the autopsy recalled such an event. Admiral Osborne told researcher and author David Lifton that he and the HSCA had disagreed over the matter. Said Osborne,
. . . I told them [HSCA investigators] that this was the way I remembered it, and they said: "Well, it must be wrong, because the Secret Service testified that the bullet was found in the hospital in Parkland, and brought back to Washington." And so I said: "Well, if that's true, then they brought it back to the morgue, because I had that bullet in my hand, and looked at it."
According to the official record of the chain of possession of the bullet that was found at Parkland Hospital, that missile was never taken to Bethesda Hospital (where the autopsy was performed).
The HSCA's claim that no one else at the autopsy recalled seeing a missile fall from the sheets wrapped around the body is incorrect. As mentioned above, a medical technician who was at the autopsy has said he remembers seeing this happen, while another med-tech says he recalls discussion among personnel at the autopsy about a bullet having fallen from the sheets.
Admiral Osborne told Lifton the bullet fell from the clothing wrapped around the body when the body was removed from the casket.
* A security representative from the CIA, Regis Blahut, was detained and polygraphed for opening an HSCA safe and for handling at least one autopsy photograph without permission. Only after failing three polygraph tests did Blahut finally admit he had handled the autopsy photo. Though Blahut's illegal action was attributed to "curiosity," Blahut later blurted to a reporter "There are other things involved that are detrimental to other things." The CIA fired Blahut as a result of the incident, but the matter was not investigated further.
* HSCA polygraph experts studied Jack Ruby's polygraph and found it was very ineptly done. They found that the polygrapher ignored standard procedure in a way that made it harder to detect falsehood. Yet, even with the polygraph's sensitivity turned down (instead of up, as it should have been), the registered responses indicated Ruby was lying when he denied he had no role in the assassination. The HSCA polygraph experts stated the following in their report regarding the reaction to the question, "Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?":
In fact, the reactions to the preceding question--(Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?)--showed the largest valid GSR reaction in test series No. 1. In addition, there is a constant suppression of breathing and a rise in blood pressure at the time of this crucial relevant question. From this test, it appeared to the panel that Ruby was possibly lying when answering "no" to the question, "Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?" This is contrary to Herndon's opinion that Ruby was truthful when answering that question. (8 HSCA 217-218)
* Numerous witnesses complained that the transcripts of their interviews with the FBI and/or with WC staffers were inaccurate, and in some cases that the transcripts significantly misreported important parts of their testimony.
* Most of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza who expressed an opinion on the subject did not believe all the shots came solely from the Book Depository.
* At least fifty Dealey Plaza witnesses believed shots were fired from in front of the President's limousine. A number of these witnesses said they were certain at least one shot came from in front of the limousine.
* Four policemen were told by bystanders that shots had come from the picket fence on the grassy knoll, which was to the right front of the limousine during the shooting.
* Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig and motorist Richard Robinson said they saw a man run down across the grassy incline in front of the Book Depository and get into a light-colored Rambler station wagon after the President had been shot.
* Richard Randolph Carr, watching from a nearby building, said he saw a man in a tan jacket on the top floor of the TSBD shortly before the assassination, and that he saw the same man a few minutes afterward walk "very fast" down Houston Street, turn the corner onto Commerce Street, and then get into a light-colored Rambler station wagon.
* Three witnesses who saw a man in the southeast corner window of the sixth floor of the Book Depository said the man's hair was blond or light colored. Oswald's hair was brown.
* All five of the witnesses who reported seeing a gunman in the sixth-floor window of the TSBD said the man was wearing a light-colored shirt. But Oswald wore a rust-brown shirt to work that day, and a policeman saw Oswald wearing that shirt less than 90 seconds after that shots were fired.
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About the Author: Michael T. Griffith is a two-time graduate of the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, and of the U.S. Air Force Technical Training School in San Angelo, Texas, and is the author of four books on Mormonism and ancient texts. His articles on the assassination have appeared in such publications as THE ASSASSINATION CHRONICLES, the JFK DEEP POLITICS QUARTERLY, and DALLAS '63. He is also the author of the book COMPELLING EVIDENCE: A NEW LOOK AT THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY (Grand Prairie, TX: JFK-Lancer Productions and Publications, 1996).
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/the_critics/g..._the_facts.html
Can any of these "facts" be substantiated in any way? I seriously doubt a lot of these accusations. They sound an awful lot like falacies made up by someone trying to sell a book.
Also, a lot of those "facts" neither prove or disprove, or point to a conspiracy theory in any way. How does a mis-report of the color of Oswald's hair or color of the shirt he was wearing do anything to prove there was a second shooter?
One thing for certain - the driver was involved. After JFK and Connally had both clearly been shot, which the driver sees when he first turns around. Instead of speeding off immediately after seeing this, the driver again turns around to look behind at JFK, and slows (some witnesses say stopped) the limo, until the head shot, with the driver still turned around. Only then does he speed off. That in itself is grounds for his involvement.
Oh please. That's a perfectly plausible reaction. Driver hears something out of the ordinary, turns around to see something completely out of the ordinary (the president holding his throat), takes some time to wonder what the hell is going on, then sees the presidents head explode. At that time, he fully realizes whats going on and floors it.
You honestly think that the driver wouldn't take any time whatsoever to be shocked or confused at the extremely strange situation? C'mon. Hilarious that people completely rule out the possibility that the driver was, in fact, a human being with human reactions and emotions. In fact, if the driver would've immediately gunned it the split second he heard the shot, I'd actually then be suspicious of his involvement. If he took no time at all to be shocked, then he'd surely have to know the shot was coming.
This is a link to a page that proves the zapruder film was tampered with and changed. Overwhelming evidence of a cover-up by people in very high places.
Fake Zapruder Film
This is a link to a page that proves the zapruder film was tampered with and changed. Overwhelming evidence of a cover-up by people in very high places.
Fake Zapruder Film
I'm going to have to spend some time looking at this link. Right now it's pretty confusing to me, and it's almost time for me to get out of here. Maybe tomorrow I'll be able to analyze it a bit more.
Thanks for the link.
Okay, I’ve had some time to analyze this link. I did try to read the contents in an objective manner, though I have to confess that the idea of the faked video seemed pretty unrealistic to me at first.
First off, the author refers to “scientists and researchers” without ever giving a name, which immediately throws up a red flag in my mind:
Also, I found this amusing:
Believe whatever you want, just as long as it aligns itself with my opinion.
Maybe it’s possible, but it seems to me that placing the limo in the precise location on the street, traveling at the exact speed, and getting the natural lighting to perfectly match in a perfectly fluid motion seems a daunting task.
Even more farfetched. I don’t think, especially in the mid ‘60’s, that this could be pulled off without it looking pretty obvious.
Here’s where I just can’t help but to want to completely discredit this entire site. Supposedly there exists some mystery film that the public hasn’t yet seen, and only that film shows the limo stopping? I think the author conveniently forgets that the Zapruder film is not the only video in existence of the assassination. And when is it more logical to believe the images on a video one hasn’t seen over a video one can plainly see?
It seems that the rest of the “evidence” presented by this site assumes that the limo did indeed stop, and that framesof the Zapruder film were inserted and/or completely forged to cover up this fact. I think it’s obvious the limo did slow down, but to state it stopped is speculative.
Sidebar:
It just occurred to me that the original Zapruder film (the actual film pulled out of the camera) must reside somewhere. Wouldn’t it be easy enough to look it over for evidence of tampering? Surely if it was spliced numerous times, it would be evident to the naked eye. And I’m also sure that it’s been examined many times over the years, and no one’s reported any evidence of tampering until the 90’s. Seems a bit farfetched to me.
[font=Arial Black][size=7] Well, here's my two cents worth. In the 1990's I interviewed Richard Helms. He admitted to me that persons involved with the CIA and the Watergate burglary were involved in the Kennedy assassination. He's what I term a credible person. I have an audiotape of him calling me and leaving a message to call him back - so I can prove we did talk.
Some things to point out, Skeptic102..
In your first post, the bullet trajectory and positions of JFK and Connally are inaccurate, as can be seen in the Zapruder film. Connally was not twisting his torso to the right, in front of JFK, at the time claimed to be when the impact occurred. Nor was he well to the left in front of JFK in the limo. Look at these frames...
It's obvious Connally, in front of JFK in the limo, is not aligned towards the left side of JFK. And when he actually does turn to the right, it is after he is hit, and even has his left hand resting on the top edge of the right side door, which shows he is not sitting toward the center of the limo, but rather toward the right side of it.
Also, there was an entry hole in JFK's back, at least 5-6" down his back from his neck line, and to the right side of his spine. This bullet was on a downward trajectory, coming from the right side of the limo, if it actually came from the 6th floor of the TSBD. It could not have moved upwards and to the left within JFK's body, not hitting any bone, then forward as it exited through JFK's throat, then gone downwards into Connally's lower back, shattering his ribs, exited his chest downwards, through his wrist, shattering his wrist bone , and lodge in his right thigh - and somehow, then end up on a vacant stretcher by itself in Parkland Hospital.
The only flaw in the bullet was in the photo you posted - a slight flattening at the base (bottom) of the bullet. The nose and all the rest of the jacket of the bullet are virtually pristine. After shattering bone two times? And after creating SEVEN separate wounds on two people? Not a chance.
Okay, I’ve had some time to analyze this link. I did try to read the contents in an objective manner, though I have to confess that the idea of the faked video seemed pretty unrealistic to me at first.
First off, the author refers to “scientists and researchers” without ever giving a name, which immediately throws up a red flag in my mind:
Also, I found this amusing:
Believe whatever you want, just as long as it aligns itself with my opinion.
Maybe it’s possible, but it seems to me that placing the limo in the precise location on the street, traveling at the exact speed, and getting the natural lighting to perfectly match in a perfectly fluid motion seems a daunting task.
Even more farfetched. I don’t think, especially in the mid ‘60’s, that this could be pulled off without it looking pretty obvious.
Here’s where I just can’t help but to want to completely discredit this entire site. Supposedly there exists some mystery film that the public hasn’t yet seen, and only that film shows the limo stopping? I think the author conveniently forgets that the Zapruder film is not the only video in existence of the assassination. And when is it more logical to believe the images on a video one hasn’t seen over a video one can plainly see?
It seems that the rest of the “evidence” presented by this site assumes that the limo did indeed stop, and that framesof the Zapruder film were inserted and/or completely forged to cover up this fact. I think it’s obvious the limo did slow down, but to state it stopped is speculative.
Sidebar:
It just occurred to me that the original Zapruder film (the actual film pulled out of the camera) must reside somewhere. Wouldn’t it be easy enough to look it over for evidence of tampering? Surely if it was spliced numerous times, it would be evident to the naked eye. And I’m also sure that it’s been examined many times over the years, and no one’s reported any evidence of tampering until the 90’s. Seems a bit farfetched to me.
In this link, if you scroll down a couple inches to where it shows the short clip of the limo driver, you have to admit it appears he brings his left hand up with something dark in it, aims in Kennedy's direction, and his hand appears to kick back.
Also, with all the people there that day saying the car very noticably slowed down as the driver turned around, which is also when the fatal headshot took place, why doesn't the Zapruder film show the car slowing down at all?
i think he was shot from the grassy knoll
I believe he was shot from the schoolbook depository and the grassy knoll, with the fatal shot coming from Greer, the driver.
Two things bother me about the lone assassin theory, and they aren't scientific in nature, they are common sense based:
1.) quote skeptic102
"Well, he didnt aim perfect at all. Remember he MISSED the first shot and it ended up hitting the curb. "
- First shots are almost always the most accurate. The idea that a "marksman" could miss the whole car with his first shot and then follow up quickly with a neck and head shot seems very illogical. I mean, the first shot didn't hit Kennedy in the shoulder or something - it missed the whole car.
2.) From the vantage point of the 6th floor of the TSB, why wouldn't a lone gunman take the shot when the car was coming almost directly at him and is closer with less variables instead of waiting for the car to turn and take a more distant shot with the car turning slightly and going downhill?
- The logical answer to that is the triangulation of fire theory. A simple viewing of an overhead picture of Dealey Plaza shows that the closest point to the road with adequate cover to fire from is the fence on the grassy knoll. That's the shot that had to be protected as it would have the best chance for success. Fire had to be held for that reason.
I'm in full agreement with the original post. Pending new evidence, there is just no reason at all to believe that Oswald did not act alone.
On the other hand, my wife thinks Kennedy lives on the Moon with Elvis and Walt Disney.
Harte
I'm seriously not sure which theory is correct, I'll just bring forward my findings and observations.
An animation I've found (and never seen or heard about this finding before) shows the lapel of connally flying forward at the point of the first shot. Later and beyond this animation connelly's left hand goes up to this exact point where the wound is.
And here is a still of 224 where connally's lapel is clearly sticking outwards
Now then, can anybody really argue that this was caused by the supposed frontal neck shot kennedy reacts to when he appears from behind the sign?
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Please follow these instructions
click the link below and make both this window and the youtube window that opened when you clicked the link into smaller windows, have one window on one half of your screen and the other window on the other half of your screen so you can read this forum and view the video at the same time.
View the video here
frames 224 - 236 show a reaction from both kennedy and connally.
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Kennedy's reaction.
Right hand
Moves up and covers mouth. For some reason his elbow is raised making his arm horizontal. Think about it (hell, act it out yourself if you want to), you raise your hand up to your mouth in shock, your elbow is towards your side. I'm not sure why he does this and would be happy to hear your suggestions.
Left hand
Moves up towards the neck area and then moves away. Either his hand goes up towards the wound and then away, or it goes to his neck tie and he pulls the tie loose to help himself breath. If it's the later of the too, his reaction is seriously quick. In an event like that, human reaction for self preservation takes over and you no longer think in the normal manner, so the normal reaction is to cover the wound (just like connally, but we'll get to that).
Head
Now once he's covered his mouth he makes either a coughing action or a vomiting action (wretching as I know it). Given that a bullet has just gone through his larynx you wouldn't blame him for doing this action (like I said before, bodies natural reaction takes over). The bullet going through his larynx would have sent a shock wave out of his mouth, the vaccuum behind the bullet causes the most damage and this would have caused a shock wave, air, saliva particles, blood particles to fly in both directions down and up the larynx, ergo the coughing action you see.
Connally's reaction.
Lapel
Although this is technically not connally's bodily reaction it is worth mentioning. Note the moment before he reacts to his wound the lapel flies forward (just like in the animated gif above). Before the lapel is flat and you can see white shirt between his suit and his tie on his right, then at the point of reaction (infact one frame before, accounting for human reaction time) the white seen between the suit and the tie becomes black as the lapel flys forward. But I do not think it was the bullet that caused this, please read on as i note this two paragraphs later.
Hat
Again not technically connally's reaction, but worth a mention. The hat flies forwards and upwards. Imagine holding a hat like he is, if a bullet comes flying through your body, forwards through your wrist towards your hand. It's going to send your hand outwards away from your body, the hat then flys upwards due to the bending of the brim of the hat. Connally is still holding the hat after this hit (which is suprising really, a shot to the wrist would probably make me drop what ever I'm holding). Although you might have heard people say "how can he hold his hat with a broken wrist?" to be honest I would say that was the position his hand was in when shot, he would be reluctant to move his hand or wrist at all as the motion of the tendons would cause considerable pain. Plus I would say a bullet to the wrist would not necessarily cause the hand to no longer grip onto a hat. Also, the hat is laying on his lap so he is not fully supporting the wiehgt of the hat with the grip of his hand. Normall bodily reaction to a wound or hit of any kind is to tense up and not move the area of pain.
----------------------
Now if you watch the video keeping in mind these two paragraphs above, you will see a flaw. The lapel seems to fly up, then a frame passes by and then the hat in connelly's hand flys upwards (you could say it's the time for connally to react to the shot, I would say no it isn't), also kennedy'd reaction is later at this point (lapel... frames gap... reaction). Look at the video again, but try to glaze over it so to speak (try to observe the whoel event all at the same time and not focus on one specific point), try to see that the lapel flaps upwards, then both kennedy and connally and his hat move in sync. Why the lapel flys up I'm not sure, could simply be the wind. Please add any suggestion on this matter.
After watching the video, all the parts I've mentioned above seem to happen in this order.
Lapel
Kennedy's right hand moves up to his mouth, same time connally's hat flys upwards
Kennedy's left hand grabs his tie (or covers the wound)
Connally's hat flops back down
Kennedy pulls his tie loose with his left hand (index and middle finger, like you normally would)
That seems the order to me.
Also view this (parental disgretion is advised), it's an autopsy image (i've never seen before) showing the line the bullet could have taken, and I ersonally believe it is the bullet I've been talking about here.
Autopsy Picture
You can't deny, the hole in the upper part of his back is smaller than the hole in his neck, which means the back was entry and the neck was exit. I personally can't see how people have been arguing over this fact when you can see the height of the back wound is perfectly high enough to take the shot from either the depository or the building nextdoor. (i'm starting to sound like a lone gunman believer now)
Please note
I'm with the conspiracy theorists on this one, always have been. My reason for this is not by the event itself, but by the suspicious circumstances around this whole event. There's too much dodgy suicides, strange unprocedural occurences, mis-reportings, witness observation conflictions, supposed human errors and more, for this to be a lone gunman theory (actually, not lone gunman theory, I really mean for this to not have some heigher department or agency involvement or knowledge). But having typed all this out, that reaction you see there seems to me to be a single shot (either the first or second shot, i would like it to be the first) from behind.
I say I would like it to be the first shot because I just can't grasp why the first shot would miss completely, it doesn't make sense. The only reason I can think of for missing completely on the first shot is having the safety switch off and pressing the trigger by accident, which sounds very unprofessional to me. I'm open to suggestions, infact I want suggestion because it just doesn't add up to me. I've heard about this whole shot hit the pavement, thing. I really can't figure that part out. Maybe I'm just being dumb and it was oswald, all nervous as hell, bit of a n00b with a rifle and did exactly what I just said, touched trigger too much to set the first shot off, missing, then next shot did all the above, as he was aiming for kennedy's head on this second shot but motion of car caused him to miss-aim, hitting lower than the intended target, then he finally allowed for the motion of car, distance and adjusted his last shot higher, slicing the top section of kennedy's head off, but I still think the head shot was from in front....I think :\.
I'm not sure, like I said I think it's a conspiracy from all the strange occurances around this event. Maybe the government knew about oswalds intentions and let things happen because it rid them of a leader apposed to war, I just don't know.
I'd say that shot I've gone through came from behind, and the head shot came from infront. I only say the front because the crowd reacted after the scene by running towards that picket fence. View this for crowds reaction. They did that reaction for a reason!
Being a believer in a conspiracy doesn't mean you shouldn't question your thoughts and opinions on the matter, and I try to keep an open mind, even to the point of trying to believe what i don't believe (if that makes sense) by observing and using plain logic.
Anyway, I've wattled on for more than I intended here so I'll see what you people have to say about this matter.
Initially, I wasn't going to respond to this topic cuz frankly it's a tired old debate
...but what the hell. Here's my 2 bit (non)cents worth to throw in-
My girlfriend's uncle(now deceased) knew L.H. Oswald, as did a few other folks in New Orleans back in the day. He just could not and would not believe that Lee Harvey could pull off shooting John F. Kennedy since he considered Oswald to be such a buffoon
.
I once was at Dealey Plaza in Dallas and stood in front of the infamous School Book Depository. I remember looking at the supposed gunman's window from the ground and then looking over to the spot where JFK got shot. It was quite a distance. Just to be able to hit a target from that distance, much less if that target is moving at an unpredictable speed, is quite a feat for someone who supposedly wasn't all that great of a marksman in the military. Damn Oswald, for a lifetime loser you sure succeeded on that one time when it really mattered!
Nick Beef
That's enough noncents for now...
This is all pure nonsense. First, no one saw L.H. Oswald shoot anyone. That is being historically alleged to help push the Lone Gunman theory along, and make it look like Oswald did it all himself.
Second, since no one saw Oswald shoot anyone, how can this whole nonsensical theory be believed in the first place?
Third, there were NUMEROUS eye witnesses who SAW 2-3 men with RIFLES in the grassy knoll that day before, during, and after the shooting. We heard and saw eye witness testimony from people who were there that saw them. Why weren't they interviewed by the dopey Warren commission?
Fourth, speaking of the Warren commission, why did not anyone question the fact that this commission was biased from the get-go? It is rather difficult to believe that any body of supposedly
impartial members can consist of a man who was FIRED by Kennedy himself not long before JFK was assassinated by a cabal of men lurking in secret?
How many people were interviewed by the Warren commission? I believe that it was only three people that were interviewed, and those people did not provide any useful information at all as to what happened that day in Dallas.
The bottom line is this- there are WAY TOO many holes in the "Lone Gunman" nonsensical theory for it to be taken seriously by anyone.
1) No one saw LHO shoot anyone. Finger prints can be easily faked, if they had even bothered to take prints at the scene in the first place.
2) Eyewitnesses there at the scene saw multiple gun men in the infamous grassy knoll area. If there was only a single "lone gunman" why were these gunmen there in hiding?
3) Investigators interviewed members of the Mafia in Europe and found that they KNEW what was to take place and whom was responsible. Mafia Informants working secretly for the
French Police and Scotland Yard told of who was responsible for the hit, and why.
These informants quite specifically said that our own CIA paid for and bought the services of the Mafia here in the US and in Europe to get the job done, and leave no evidence
of the crime or the perpetrators of who did it.
This completely discounts the idiotic Oswald lone gunman theory.
4) Taped conversations of suspected mafia members in New Orleans a week before the assassination revealed a plot which was to take place in Dallas.
Those conversations in New Orleans were made a week before the Dallas assassination were done by the FBI and local New Orleans police. One of the voices on that secret taping was,
I believe, David Ferry- a known mafia member. The voices on the recording all talked about "JFK getting a hit on him" in Dallas when he arrives there.
This also completely discounts a single gunman theory as well.
5) The sudden and mysterious deaths of Dorothy Kilgallen, LHO, and Jack Ruby- Oswald's assailant, all point to a massive conspiracy within our Government to silence those who wanted to
uncover the truth about the conspiracy to kill JFK. Many people who took photos of the parade at Dealey plaza were approached and ORDERED at gun point to surrender their evidence
by men who did NOT identify themselves, nor did they show any I.D.
Kilgallen was murdered just hours before she was to interview Jack Ruby in prison. Ruby told Kilgallen that he was going to provide evidence of who paid him to kill Oswald, and the other
things that he knew of the entire JFK assassination conspiracy. When the body of Miss Kilgallen was recovered in her room, the reason of her death was ruled "suicide".
That is also complete and total nonsense. She was about to get the interview of a lifetime, and she kills herself?
Please...
Let's get real here!
She was also silenced by the sinister forces which killed JFK, and later his brother RFK.
Oswald was silenced, as well as Kilgallen, and Ruby.
Quite frankly, anyone who believes that Oswald was the lone gunman, and who did all of this himself is either very gullible and naive, or just ignorant of the facts.
6) The uncovered memo from a Warren commission member who was told to essentially "make it look like it was a lone gunman" BEFORE the commission began their hearings?
All of these things point unequivocally to a massive conspiracy to murder our President.
Full Version: Oswald Shot Kennedy
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > News, Media & World Events > Conspiracies & Secret Societies
Here I will attempt to explain how it WAS possible for Oswald to fire those shots and wound Kennedy and Conally like he did. I used to believe this was a conspiracy until I took a look at some key evidence.
1. It was indeed possible to fire 3 shots in 5.6 seconds. Oswald had as much as 8 seconds actually. Any one can fire the three shots in 8 seconds, and it is not suprising that Oswald can fire the 3 in 5.6 seconds, considering his Marine training.
2. The "Magic" bullet really wasnt magic at all. The bullet is fired from the sixth floor of the book depository building and hits kennedy below the shoulder blade and exits out the base of his throught. It continues into Conally's back, into his wrist, and into his thigh. Sound amazing? Its not. Conally was not seated directly infront of Kennedy he was seated to the left and slightly lower than Kennedy making the magic bullet not magic at all. Here are two illustrations that should explain it pretty well.
Conspiracy version.
Actual version.
We can see that the tredectory of the bullet is a lot straighter than many people think. The bullet is straight and is then turned slightly as it passes through Conally's ribs. This causes the bullet to exit into his wrist going only 1000 feet per second. It then exits the wrist and hits his thigh, exits that and end up on the floor of the limo. The bullet is not badly damaged but is not in pristine condition either.
Finally, the headshot. The fact that Kennedy's head jerks backward should prove that the shot came from behind. As a bullet penetrates the skull it creates a small hole and slides right in. As it comes out the front it pulls a lot of brain with it. This pull is the force that causes Kennedy's head to jerk backward.
This is good evidence that Oswald WAS able to fire the 3 shots in 5.6 seconds and cause all of the wounds. This is of course open to debate. If you have some good evidence of a second gunman please present it. It would be nice to have a debate on the Kennedy assassination using good evidence.
He was sitting directly in front of him in the video and in photographs. If what your saying is true then why arn't all the investigators of the case all over this?
Also he was shot in the side of the head coming from the front, watch this little video clip.
EDIT: Graphic Video Removed
Quote Skeptic102
"This is good evidence that Oswald WAS able to fire the 3 shots in 5.6 seconds and cause all of the wounds. This is of course open to debate. If you have some good evidence of a second gunman please present it. It would be nice to have a debate on the Kennedy assassination using good evidence."
Yes its very easy to shoot 3 shots off in less than 5 seconds, but the debate is how did he aim perfectly on target every shot in less than 5 seconds.
QUOTE
He was sitting directly in front of him in the video and in photographs. If what your saying is true then why arn't all the investigators of the case all over this?
That photograph is bad because of the angle. It is clearly visible however that Conally is sitting lower than Kennedy. Watch the Zapruder film again and look closely. You will see Conally to the left and slightly lower than Kennedy. Also, the Warren Commission and the FBI investigations all took into account the seating positions...conspiracy theorists do not.
QUOTE
Yes its very easy to shoot 3 shots off in less than 5 seconds, but the debate is how did he aim perfectly on target every shot in less than 5 seconds.
Well, he didnt aim perfect at all. Remember he MISSED the first shot and it ended up hitting the curb. He tried to get a head shot but hit Kennedy at the base of the throught his second try. He was only accurate on his third try. Doesnt sound like incredible accuracy to me.
QUOTE
Also he was shot in the side of the head coming from the front, watch this little video clip.
I think there are other explanations for why his head jerked like that. Number 1 if he is shot from behind his head would jerk toward the shot, as I explained. Number 2, the bullet that hit his neck probably messed it up a bit. Lets hypthesize. The bullet hits him from the book depository. His head jerks back. However his neck is damaged in a way were he cannot jerk toward the book depository. So, the force of the bullet jerks it back like its supposed to, but the damage to the neck causes it to jerk left instead of right.
The force from a rifle shot would throw his head into the direction the bullet was traveling, his head jerking back from a shot coming from the back defies physics. It dosent even make sense. Can you picture shooting someone with a rifle in the head from behind him and then having him fall backwards?
quote skeptic102
"Well, he didnt aim perfect at all. Remember he MISSED the first shot and it ended up hitting the curb. He tried to get a head shot but hit Kennedy at the base of the throught his second try. He was only accurate on his third try. Doesnt sound like incredible accuracy to me."
From the angle he was at in the building and the distance he was from kennedy clearly shows that this guy was either superman with his rifle or there was another gunman. When you fire a rifle you gotta take your finger off the trigger move your hand up to recoil the spent casing after every shot then put your finger back on the trigger than aim at a MOVING target from that distance and hit him and under 5 seconds. That is pretty difficult.
QUOTE
The force from a rifle shot would throw his head into the direction the bullet was traveling, his head jerking back from a shot coming from the back defies physics. It dosent even make sense. Can you picture shooting someone with a rifle in the head from behind him and then having him fall backwards?
Simple. Its kinda like a push and pull effect. As the bullet hits the head it creates a tiny hole and slides right in. This is a push effect. As it exits the head it pulls a lot of brain with it. This is the pull effect. The bullet pulling the brain out of the head is stronger than the force of the bullet entering the head. I believe this theory was tested and proven to be true.
QUOTE
From the angle he was at in the building and the distance he was from kennedy clearly shows that this guy was either superman with his rifle or there was another gunman. When you fire a rifle you gotta take your finger off the trigger move your hand up to recoil the spent casing after every shot then put your finger back on the trigger than aim at a MOVING target from that distance and hit him. That is pretty difficult.
Yeah, it would be hard for you or me to pull of but this guy was a former marine. He was also practicing a lot with rifles before he took out Kennedy. Also, he had as much as 8 seconds to fire this, so it is not impossible. He had a good angle from the book depository and all he really got was two hits. You dont think a former marine can hit a moving target twice in 5.6 seconds? That is what they are trained to do.
May I see a source of this "Push and Pull" effect, because it's the first ive ever heard of such a thing happening, even in the case of kennedy.
To test the theory they actually had a military soldier whos specific skill was marksman skills with a rifle. He was told to fire at a target that was the same distance as oswald was to kennedy, that was moving, and in the same amount of time oswald "supposevly" fired the 3 shots. The soldier barley got two shots out and both missed.
QUOTE
May I see a source of this "Push and Pull" effect, because it's the first ive ever heard of such a thing happening, even in the case of kennedy.
Duncan Macpherson is a rocket scientist and has extensively studied bullet penetration and the human body. Here is what he has to say about Kennedy's head jerk.
QUOTE
In general, body movement in response to nervous system trauma is a result of contractions in body muscles. This is related to movements of your leg when a doctor raps you on the knee with his little mallet; your leg moves because a nerve induces a muscle contraction, not because it was driven into motion by the force of the tiny rap with the mallet. The slightly peculiar location of Kennedy's arms after the 399 bullet impact is known as Thorburn's position, after a description by Dr. William Thorburn in an 1889 paper on injuries to the area of the spinal chord damaged by bullet 399. In addition to this effect, simulations have shown that bullet strikes to the skull that result in blowing out a significant hole upon exit result in skull recoil towards the bullet entry direction. The dynamics of this are a little complicated, but are more related to the pressure inside the skull cavity created by the bullet passage than to effects directly related to the bullet movement. The dynamics of this kind of impact were demonstrated independently in testing by Dr. Luis Alvarez and by Dr. John K. Lattimer et al.
Duncan Macpherson Interview
Here are two filmed experiments that demonstrate this push and pull effect.
Video Test 1
Video Test 2
complete nonsense!!! the reason the bullet was called the "magic" bullet is not because it wounded two people but because it failed to deform as any normal bullet would upon encountering resistance and friction--the bullet that was claimed to have pierced kennedy and connally retained its form without the slightest alteration to its shape and form--the bullet that is called the "magic bullet" is a complete farce and did not pass through one target much less two--explain how a bullet can retain its shape after impacting two targets-then you will have demonstrated the plausibility of the official story--until then you are doing nothing more than what national geographic does with 9/11--repeat a lie without offering a shred of evidence over and over and over and...
QUOTE(Skeptic102 @ Sep 5 2005, 11:04 PM)
QUOTE
May I see a source of this "Push and Pull" effect, because it's the first ive ever heard of such a thing happening, even in the case of kennedy.
Duncan Macpherson is a rocket scientist and has extensively studied bullet penetration and the human body. Here is what he has to say about Kennedy's head jerk.
QUOTE
In general, body movement in response to nervous system trauma is a result of contractions in body muscles. This is related to movements of your leg when a doctor raps you on the knee with his little mallet; your leg moves because a nerve induces a muscle contraction, not because it was driven into motion by the force of the tiny rap with the mallet. The slightly peculiar location of Kennedy's arms after the 399 bullet impact is known as Thorburn's position, after a description by Dr. William Thorburn in an 1889 paper on injuries to the area of the spinal chord damaged by bullet 399. In addition to this effect, simulations have shown that bullet strikes to the skull that result in blowing out a significant hole upon exit result in skull recoil towards the bullet entry direction. The dynamics of this are a little complicated, but are more related to the pressure inside the skull cavity created by the bullet passage than to effects directly related to the bullet movement. The dynamics of this kind of impact were demonstrated independently in testing by Dr. Luis Alvarez and by Dr. John K. Lattimer et al.
Duncan Macpherson Interview
Here are two filmed experiments that demonstrate this push and pull effect.
Video Test 1
Video Test 2
[right][snapback]829174[/snapback][/right]
"The dynamics of this kind of impact were demonstrated independently in testing by Dr. Luis Alvarez and by Dr. John K. Lattimer et al."
The first video didn't work for me. But the second video clearly shows that from his point of view he aimed and hit the right most part of the fruit at an odd angle so of course it's going to go left(mind you from his point of view) but to our frame of reference it makes it look like its going backward.
I thought the topic said there would be good evidence of the lone gunman theory... where?
QUOTE
complete nonsense!!! the reason the bullet was called the "magic" bullet is not because it wounded two people but because it failed to deform as any normal bullet would upon encountering resistance and friction--the bullet that was claimed to have pierced kennedy and connally retained its form without the slightest alteration to its shape and form--the bullet that is called the "magic bullet" is a complete farce and did not pass through one target much less two--explain how a bullet can retain its shape after impacting two targets-then you will have demonstrated the plausibility of the official story--until then you are doing nothing more than what national geographic does with 9/11--repeat a lie without offering a shred of evidence over and over and over and...
Heres what the bullet actually looked like. One of the main reasons it didnt deform more is because it dramatically slowed after it hit Conally's ribs.
Well heres a joke for anyone who plays Resdent Evil: Leon Shot Kennedy!
But seriously Oswald was a patsy.
oswald did'nt have the smarts to pull this off all by himself!was he part of it?yes.was he the brains behind it?not likely.he had help from some powerful people in the mob,and maybe a few former highups in our government.
Some things to point out, Skeptic102..
In your first post, the bullet trajectory and positions of JFK and Connally are inaccurate, as can be seen in the Zapruder film. Connally was not twisting his torso to the right, in front of JFK, at the time claimed to be when the impact occurred. Nor was he well to the left in front of JFK in the limo. Look at these frames...
It's obvious Connally, in front of JFK in the limo, is not aligned towards the left side of JFK. And when he actually does turn to the right, it is after he is hit, and even has his left hand resting on the top edge of the right side door, which shows he is not sitting toward the center of the limo, but rather toward the right side of it.
Also, there was an entry hole in JFK's back, at least 5-6" down his back from his neck line, and to the right side of his spine. This bullet was on a downward trajectory, coming from the right side of the limo, if it actually came from the 6th floor of the TSBD. It could not have moved upwards and to the left within JFK's body, not hitting any bone, then forward as it exited through JFK's throat, then gone downwards into Connally's lower back, shattering his ribs, exited his chest downwards, through his wrist, shattering his wrist bone , and lodge in his right thigh - and somehow, then end up on a vacant stretcher by itself in Parkland Hospital.
The only flaw in the bullet was in the photo you posted - a slight flattening at the base (bottom) of the bullet. The nose and all the rest of the jacket of the bullet are virtually pristine. After shattering bone two times? And after creating SEVEN separate wounds on two people? Not a chance.
Of course it's also" possible" that earth will be invaded by martians...but do we really believe that? Of course not.
Oswald could have been an informant to the FBI which would explain why they were visiting him before the assassination.
Oswald himself was assassinated to ensure that there would be no public hearings between Oswald and Jackie Kennedy.
Johnson and FBI director conspired together to make Oswald the lone gunman no matter what.
Navy forged the Bethesda Naval Hospital autopsy photos and hid the real evidence...Kennedys head was half blown away but in the early cover-up the autopsy photos shown in Time-Life were not indicative of such a grievous wound...they showed a neat little hole in the back of the head to cover up the real event.
Now...I have seen the latest Zapruder Video that was digitally re-mastered by the National Archives...it clearly shows the limo driver(Secret Service agent William Greer) looking back twice...on the second look behind him he is slowing the car down and at the same time pulling an object from his jacket and points it at Kennedys head which is in Jackies lap(head down leaning to right) and then half his head disappears. After that the limo driver spins back to the front and begins to take off. He also lied to the Warren Commision about his actions.
Our right-wing half of the government killed Mr. Kennedy, heads of corporations who didnt agrea with his policies, hawks in the military...explains why military covered up the autopsy, and the biggest culprits in the oil industry like Nelson Rockefeler, Bush family friend Clint Murchison...this man held the reigns of Lyndon Johnson.
Hey spycat - do you have a link for the new digitized Zapruder film? I heard there was one out there.... Thx, dude.
QUOTE
Now...I have seen the latest Zapruder Video that was digitally re-mastered by the National Archives...it clearly shows the limo driver(Secret Service agent William Greer) looking back twice...on the second look behind him he is slowing the car down and at the same time pulling an object from his jacket and points it at Kennedys head which is in Jackies lap(head down leaning to right) and then half his head disappears. After that the limo driver spins back to the front and begins to take off. He also lied to the Warren Commision about his actions.
This theory has been debunked. Watch this again very, very carefully and take it frame by frame. The 'gun' you see the driver pull is actually a reflection off of the top of the head of the man sitting next to the driver. I know it sounds silly but watch it frame, by frame. You will see that it is a reflection that is in the shape of a gun. Really all the driver does is look at Kennedy.
Here is more proof.
This is a picture of Kennedy's limo before the assassination. Note the seating arangement. Conally is sitting lower and slightly to the left-front of kennedy!
Here you can see Kennedy's head explode from the top and forward something that would have been impossible if he was hit from the angle of the grassy knol. NOTE: I know this pic is graffic but it is an important piece of evidence is solving this case.
This photo shows that Kennedy's head exploded from the top. This, combined with the push and pull effect earlier demonstated, is evidence that JFK was hit from behind. Using the push and pull effect (or jet blast effect) his head would have jerked differently if he was hit from the grassy knol. His head would have jerked toward the shot and therefore forward, but we see his head jerk backward, indicative that the bullet came from behind.
Yes, I know, the lone gunman theoy is a boring and mundane explanation. One lone commie takes out the president and Jack Ruby, out of love for kennedy, kills Oswald. Is that really so hard to believe? There is not always a conspiracy, remember that. One should never asume that a conspiracy exists but rather they should investigate the case with an open mind. After much investigation many people, including myself have concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.
QUOTE
This is a picture of Kennedy's limo before the assassination. Note the seating arangement. Conally is sitting lower and slightly to the left-front of kennedy!
The camera is taking the photo from the left side of the limo - from this angle, Jackie is in line with the center of the front windshield, but she was obviously not sitting in the center of the limo. She and JFK are leaning to the right as they are looking well to the right hand side of the limo. Look again at my post with the Zapruder frames - that is how they were actually aligned at the time of the shooting.
QUOTE
This photo shows that Kennedy's head exploded from the top. This, combined with the push and pull effect earlier demonstated, is evidence that JFK was hit from behind. Using the push and pull effect (or jet blast effect) his head would have jerked differently if he was hit from the grassy knol. His head would have jerked toward the shot and therefore forward, but we see his head jerk backward, indicative that the bullet came from behind.
The "jet blast effect" is totally incomparable to how a head reacts to a high velocity bullet. Have you ever been in combat? If you haven't, ask someone who has what happens when a bullet hits somebody in the head. If you hit the front of the head, the head snaps back. If you hit the back of the head, it snaps forward. Basic laws of physics. The forward velocity of a bullet impact drives the object it strikes backwards - it's the directional force causing the motion at the exact moment of impact.
in the zapruder film you can actually see the driver turn around and shoot jfk-
-when the car emerges from behind the sign jfk is shot(from behind) and you can see him grab his throat and jacky looks into his face to see whats wrong thats when the driver turns around once to take aim then again and finishes the job and jacky,upon seeing this,tries to jump out the back of the moving vehicle--note that as soon as his heads "explodes" the driver can be seen turning his body "back" to the normal drive position --
Wow I never considered the driver to be the second shooter. I always thought it was from near the grassy knoll. That's a pretty powerful pistol to blow his head off like that. Everyone in the car wouldve definetly saw and heard it not to mention he people on the street seeing it. But from the way the video is it kinda does look like he shoot him. Hmmm weird.
That was in front of thousands and no one noticed the driver shoot him. Don't buy it.
QUOTE
Wow I never considered the driver to be the second shooter. I always thought it was from near the grassy knoll. That's a pretty powerful pistol to blow his head off like that. Everyone in the car wouldve definetly saw and heard it not to mention he people on the street seeing it. But from the way the video is it kinda does look like he shoot him. Hmmm weird.
The 'gun' you see is just a reflection off of the passengers head. The driver looks at kennedy and the reflection kinda makes it look like hes holding a gun but hes not. Watch it closely and you will notice that this 'gun' is just a reflection.
It wasn't the driver. The evidence (angle of entrance and exit wounds) doesn't make sense if it was. Besides, he was so close to Kennedy his face likely would have shattered.
QUOTE(Skeptic102 @ Sep 5 2005, 05:38 PM)
Here I will attempt to explain how it WAS possible for Oswald to fire those shots and wound Kennedy and Conally like he did. I used to believe this was a conspiracy until I took a look at some key evidence.
1. It was indeed possible to fire 3 shots in 5.6 seconds. Oswald had as much as 8 seconds actually. Any one can fire the three shots in 8 seconds, and it is not suprising that Oswald can fire the 3 in 5.6 seconds, considering his Marine training.
2. The "Magic" bullet really wasnt magic at all. The bullet is fired from the sixth floor of the book depository building and hits kennedy below the shoulder blade and exits out the base of his throught. It continues into Conally's back, into his wrist, and into his thigh. Sound amazing? Its not. Conally was not seated directly infront of Kennedy he was seated to the left and slightly lower than Kennedy making the magic bullet not magic at all. Here are two illustrations that should explain it pretty well.
Conspiracy version.
Actual version.
We can see that the tredectory of the bullet is a lot straighter than many people think. The bullet is straight and is then turned slightly as it passes through Conally's ribs. This causes the bullet to exit into his wrist going only 1000 feet per second. It then exits the wrist and hits his thigh, exits that and end up on the floor of the limo. The bullet is not badly damaged but is not in pristine condition either.
Finally, the headshot. The fact that Kennedy's head jerks backward should prove that the shot came from behind. As a bullet penetrates the skull it creates a small hole and slides right in. As it comes out the front it pulls a lot of brain with it. This pull is the force that causes Kennedy's head to jerk backward.
This is good evidence that Oswald WAS able to fire the 3 shots in 5.6 seconds and cause all of the wounds. This is of course open to debate. If you have some good evidence of a second gunman please present it. It would be nice to have a debate on the Kennedy assassination using good evidence.
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1. It was indeed possible to fire 3 shots in 5.6 seconds. Oswald had as much as 8 seconds actually. Any one can fire the three shots in 8 seconds, and it is not suprising that Oswald can fire the 3 in 5.6 seconds, considering his Marine training.
2. The "Magic" bullet really wasnt magic at all. The bullet is fired from the sixth floor of the book depository building and hits kennedy below the shoulder blade and exits out the base of his throught. It continues into Conally's back, into his wrist, and into his thigh. Sound amazing? Its not. Conally was not seated directly infront of Kennedy he was seated to the left and slightly lower than Kennedy making the magic bullet not magic at all. Here are two illustrations that should explain it pretty well.
Conspiracy version.
Actual version.
We can see that the tredectory of the bullet is a lot straighter than many people think. The bullet is straight and is then turned slightly as it passes through Conally's ribs. This causes the bullet to exit into his wrist going only 1000 feet per second. It then exits the wrist and hits his thigh, exits that and end up on the floor of the limo. The bullet is not badly damaged but is not in pristine condition either.
Finally, the headshot. The fact that Kennedy's head jerks backward should prove that the shot came from behind. As a bullet penetrates the skull it creates a small hole and slides right in. As it comes out the front it pulls a lot of brain with it. This pull is the force that causes Kennedy's head to jerk backward.
This is good evidence that Oswald WAS able to fire the 3 shots in 5.6 seconds and cause all of the wounds. This is of course open to debate. If you have some good evidence of a second gunman please present it. It would be nice to have a debate on the Kennedy assassination using good evidence.
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Oswald was not a good enough shot to take anyone out. And as for the 3 shots being in so many seconds, with that particular weapon they had expert riflemen test the theory and even they could'nt reproduce what Oswald supposedly did. Oswald was a scapegoat for someone or some people and I doubt we will ever find out the truth.
QUOTE(Sunofone @ Sep 9 2005, 09:18 AM)
in the zapruder film you can actually see the driver turn around and shoot jfk-
-when the car emerges from behind the sign jfk is shot(from behind) and you can see him grab his throat and jacky looks into his face to see whats wrong thats when the driver turns around once to take aim then again and finishes the job and jacky,upon seeing this,tries to jump out the back of the moving vehicle--note that as soon as his heads "explodes" the driver can be seen turning his body "back" to the normal drive position --
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-when the car emerges from behind the sign jfk is shot(from behind) and you can see him grab his throat and jacky looks into his face to see whats wrong thats when the driver turns around once to take aim then again and finishes the job and jacky,upon seeing this,tries to jump out the back of the moving vehicle--note that as soon as his heads "explodes" the driver can be seen turning his body "back" to the normal drive position --
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I was captivated at first then I noticed that the drivers so called gun was actually the top of the head of the passenger on the drivers right. It damn sure looked real to me at first.
i never mentioned a gun being visible--i am surprised to find some of you actually seeing one--the flash is a little unusual--however connally's reaction is what is so suspect--notice his arm jerk immediatly as the video starts and jfk takes the first shot implying that it was that first shot that struck him--now watch what he does after being shot--he turns his body completely side ways creating space and cover for the driver!--the view from the start of the video shows a considerable gap between connally and the person next to him and the way he contorted his body sure would provide even more access--also the fact that the shot startled both connally and the passenger to his left is evident as neither of them are actually watching the president as the final shot is delivered yet they both jump down in a flash
One thing for certain - the driver was involved. After JFK and Connally had both clearly been shot, which the driver sees when he first turns around. Instead of speeding off immediately after seeing this, the driver again turns around to look behind at JFK, and slows (some witnesses say stopped) the limo, until the head shot, with the driver still turned around. Only then does he speed off. That in itself is grounds for his involvement.
Another thing I haven't seen discussed - why is there a white car in front of the limo as it goes towards the underpass? The motorcade was led by JFK's limo, as the Zapruder film, and other films and photos show. Where did this white car come from? The limo almost comes up to its rear bumper by the end of the Zapruder film. And why does the limo driver, by this point, not veer to the left side of the road to pass by this very slow moving (if even moving) vehicle. He would have to slow right down as shown because he is so close to the back of the white car. The film seems to show him intentionally staying on the right side of the road, and directly behind the white car.
These are frames z444, z451, and z464.
I realize that this topic hasn't been posted on for a while but I thought I would add my two cents. It is very obvious that there was a conspiracy and the driver was responsible for the fatal headshot. Those who say the gun is a reflection off of Kellermans head are not looking in the right place. the gun is not raised that high, its about chest height. It is also worth noting that the Zupruder film itself has been tampered with to hide what really happened. all witnesses say that the limo slowed down to almost a complete stop as the fatal shot occurred, the film does not show this. you can also see the heads of the connally's snapping back and forth at impossible speeds, also right after the headshot, Greer and Kellerman turn back around at superhuman speeds. they literally become blurred because they turn around so fast.
Here is a link to the Zapruder film, notice that Greer brings the gun up about just under chest height, in front of Kellermans head, nowhere near the reflection on his head.
Zapruder film
Scroll down a little bit here and you can clearly see the drivers gun comes nowhere near the reflection of Kellermans head.link
JFK Speech on Secret Societies and Freedom of the Press
QUOTE
Thats right, old JFK says everything thats happening now is basically…well… unamerican…
This is an excerpt from his speech “President and the Press.”
I encourage you to listen to it first and not view the picture show on the video in front of you as the words speak for themselves.
Its a rushed job with this video as you can see, but I wanted to get it up as soon as possible.
This speech applies to so much going on today, you will understand why “they” had him killed.
This is an excerpt from his speech “President and the Press.”
I encourage you to listen to it first and not view the picture show on the video in front of you as the words speak for themselves.
Its a rushed job with this video as you can see, but I wanted to get it up as soon as possible.
This speech applies to so much going on today, you will understand why “they” had him killed.
Anyone who relies on the movie JFK as a basis for their conspiracy theory argument clearly hasn't researched this subject thoroughly enough.
I believe Oswald was the lone gunman. I've seen no evidence to suggest otherwise. I also think that believing the driver shot him is ridiculous. All the police, secret servincemen, and spectators surrounding the limo, and you seriously think no one saw the driver shoot him? C'mon, think about it. Who would possibly expect to get away with that ridiculous plan?
John F Kennedy Assassination Secret Service Stand Down
JUST THE FACTS: ESTABLISHED FACTS ABOUT THE JFK ASSASSINATION THAT POINT TO CONSPIRACY
Michael T. Griffith
1998
@All Rights Reserved
Third Edition
With all the controversy surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, it might be somewhat surprising to learn that there are many acknowledged facts about the case, facts that are so well established they aren't disputed by anyone who has seriously studied the case, and that point to conspiracy. Discussion about the JFK assassination usually centers on a specific area of the case. Sometimes, in focusing on a particular issue, we forget or overlook the obvious things. The acknowledged facts alone indicate the assassination resulted from a conspiracy, and that it was followed by an extensive cover-up. What are these facts? Here are SOME of them:
* J. Edgar Hoover informed Lyndon Johnson during a phone conversation the day after the assassination that someone had been impersonating Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged single assassin, at the Soviet embassy in Mexico City. (The transcript of the conversation was among the documents recently released by the Assassination Records Review Board [ARRB]. Also, in light of recent disclosures, there can be no credible doubt that the "Oswald" who called the Soviet embassy from the Cuban embassy in Mexico City on 9/28/63 was NOT the real Oswald.)
* Silvia Odio, the American-educated daughter of distinguished, prominent Cuban parents, gave testimony to federal investigators which, if true, would constitute strong evidence there was a conspiracy to kill President Kennedy. Mrs. Odio testified that two anti-Castro Cubans and a man named "Leon Oswald" visited her apartment in Dallas during the last week of September 1963. However, according to the Warren Commission (WC), the real Oswald was ending his stay in New Orleans and setting off for Mexico City at this time. The real Oswald would have required private transportation in order to visit Mrs. Odio's apartment. Oswald did not own a car and did not drive. In other words, if he traveled to Dallas to visit Mrs. Odio, he must have done so with help. Within forty-eight hours of the visit, Mrs. Odio reported, one of the Cubans phoned her and said (1) "Leon Oswald" was an ex-Marine and "an expert marksman" who was "kind of nuts," and (2) "Leon Oswald" said anti-Castro Cubans should have shot Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs disaster, that they should "do something like that" (i.e., shoot Kennedy). Mrs. Odio and her sister said "Leon Oswald" bore a striking resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald. The House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) concluded Mrs. Odio's testimony was credible and truthful. A senior WC staffer wrote the following in an internal Commission memo:
Mrs. Odio has checked out thoroughly. . . . The evidence is unanimously favorable. . . . [Mrs. Odio] is the most significant witness linking Oswald to the anti-Castro Cubans.
* In April 1963 an inflammatory flyer was sent to Cuban exiles in Miami which said in part:
Only through one development will you Cuban patriots ever live again in your homeland as freemen . . . if an inspired Act of God should place in the White House within weeks a Texan known to be a friend of all Latin Americans.
The flyer was signed "a Texan who resents the Oriental influence that has come to control, to degrade, to pollute and enslave his own people."
* On 10/1/63, Ernesto Castellanos, a Cuban exile who took part in the Bay of Pigs invasion, was secretly tape-recorded at a John Birch Society meeting in Dallas saying that he and other anti-Castroites were "going to give him [Kennedy] the works when he gets in Dallas." (The tape was discussed in an 8/14/78 article in the DALLAS MORNING NEWS and, according to the article, was made available to the HSCA.)
* Within days of the assassination, the Secret Service learned from an informant that an anti-Castro Cuban activist in the Chicago area, Homer S. Echevarria, in a discussion about an illegal arms sale a short time before the President was killed, said that "his group had 'plenty of money' and that his backers would proceed [with the arms deal] 'AS SOON AS WE TAKE CARE OF KENNEDY.'" This information prompted the agent in charge of the Chicago field office to prepare a memorandum in which he said Echevarria's group "may have a connection with the JFK assassination." Echevarria belonged to the 30th of November Group. Another member of this same group was Rolando Masferrer, who relayed money between Alpha 66 and Mafia kingfish Carlos Marcello. Former HSCA chief counsel G. Robert Blakey, along with many researchers, suspects Marcello was one of the figures behind the assassination. Alpha 66 was a violent, radical anti-Castro group that had a safe house in Dallas at the time of the assassination. Many anti-Castro Cuban exiles hated Kennedy because they believed he was responsible for their defeat at the Bay of Pigs.
* Dallas oil baron and extreme right-winger H. L. Hunt reportedly had similar wishes for President Kennedy. According to German journalist Joachim Joesten, during a party held prior to the President's trip to Dallas several witnesses heard Hunt remark that there was "no way left to get those traitors out of our government except by shooting them out," apparently in reference to the President and his brother, Robert Kennedy. In a speech in Houston, Texas, given prior to the assassination, Hunt said the Kennedy administration was a "Communist government." Hunt reportedly had ties to U.S. intelligence, especially to the CIA.
* Joseph Milteer, a wealthy radical right-wing leader, told a Miami police informant named William Somersett, on tape, fourteen days before the assassination, that a hit on Kennedy was "in the working." (The tape can be heard on the five-hour documentary THE MEN WHO KILLED KENNEDY, and a transcript of the tape is available in several books on the assassination.)
* Somersett reported that Milteer called him from Dallas two hours before the assassination and said President Kennedy would be in Dallas that day and that Kennedy would not be visiting Miami again.
* Somersett reported that soon after the assassination Milteer told him that Oswald had been framed and that there was no need to worry about Oswald because he didn't know anything.
* Rose Cheramie, a prostitute who had contact with underworld figures, told a doctor and a police officer two days before the assassination that Kennedy was going to be killed in Dallas. Louisiana State Police lieutenant Francis Fruge went to Eunice, Louisiana, to pick up Miss Cheramie, who had been injured when she was involved in a car accident and/or when she was struck by some men at a bar.
According to Lt. Fruge, Miss Cheramie told him on the way to the hospital that she "was going to, number one, pick up some money, pick up her baby, and to kill Kennedy." Lt. Fruge told the HSCA that when Cheramie related her story she appeared to be "quite lucid." According to Lt. Fruge, Miss Cheramie told him she had been riding in a car with two "Italian-looking" men. When Lt. Fruge questioned her later, she told him the two men traveling with her were from Miami and were going to Dallas to kill the President.
During the 1967-1969 Jim Garrison investigation into the assassination, Lt. Fruge went to the bar where Miss Cheramie had last been seen before she was injured. Fruge reported that he showed the owner of the bar some photographs and mug shots to identify, and that the bar owner chose the photos of a Cuban exile, Sergio Arcacha Smith, and another Cuban Fruge believed to be named Osanto. (Arcacha Smith is known to Kennedy assassination investigators as an anti-Castro Cuban refugee who had been active in 1961 as the head of the New Orleans Cuban Revolutionary Front. At that time, he befriended anti-Castro activist and rabid Kennedy-hater David Ferrie. Ferrie and Arcacha Smith were also believed to have had ties with New Orleans organized crime figure Carlos Marcello.)
Lt. Fruge took Miss Cheramie to the State Hospital in Jackson, Louisiana. Dr. Victor Weiss, who worked as a resident physician at the hospital at the time, stated in a 1988 documentary produced by noted columnist Jack Anderson that Cheramie told him the "word was out in the New Orleans underworld that the contract on Kennedy had been let." Miss Cheramie, said Weiss, was absolutely certain Kennedy was going to be shot, and kept insisting on it over and over again to the doctors and nurses who treated her. In 1978, Dr. Weiss told the HSCA that the doctor who had originally treated Miss Cheramie, Dr. Bowers, told him that she had stated to him, Dr. Bowers, before the assassination, that Kennedy was going to be killed. In addition, Dr. Weiss said Miss Cheramie told him she had worked for Jack Ruby. Lt. Fruge reported that Miss Cheramie told him the same thing.
* A retired El Paso policeman, Jim Bundren, has told researchers that in late September 1963, an Army Intelligence officer who had been arrested and taken into custody appeared to have foreknowledge of the assassination. The intelligence officer was Richard Case Nagell. Nagell reportedly also worked for the CIA at times, and a 1969 military intelligence "Agent Report" states that Nagell "conducted an inquiry into the activities of Lee Harvey Oswald" in August and September of 1963.
Nagell was arrested for walking into an El Paso bank and firing some shots into the ceiling on September 20, 1963. Nagell claimed he was merely trying to get arrested for his own safety because he believed he was being followed. Jim Bundren is one of the police officers who escorted Nagell during one of his hearings. Here is what Bundren reported to a researcher during a taped interview:
I was sitting next to Nagell at one of his preliminary hearings. I don't remember the exact date, but I know it was before the Kennedy assassination. Nagell looked over at me and said, "You're a pretty good cop, aren't you? You know, if I didn't want you to, you'd never have caught me."
I said, "You didn't want to rob that bank, did you?" He just looked at me for a moment. He's got that look that's unusual, the penetrating eyes, that scar down one side of his face. And he says, "What makes you say that?"
I said, "I saw the shots you fired in the bank. With your Army training and everything, I just felt like maybe it was some kind of a diversionary tactic."
Nagell just smiled and said, "WELL, I'M GLAD YOU CAUGHT ME. I REALLY DON'T WANT TO BE IN DALLAS. I said, "What do you mean by that?" "YOU'LL SEE SOON ENOUGH," he said. (emphasis added)
* A CIA document released in 1977 states that Jean Soutre, a notorious French assassin with reported links to the Mafia and the CIA, was in Dallas on the day of the assassination. The document also says Soutre was picked up by U.S. authorities in Texas and deported within forty-eight hours of the shooting.
* During the forty days preceding the assassination, Oswald had little time to target practice.
* When asked to comment on Oswald's last rifle score as a Marine, Lt. Col. A. G. Folsom said Oswald's score of "Marksman" was indicative of someone who was "a rather poor shot."
* Oswald's best score in the Marines was just two points above the minimum required for the middle of three qualification levels, "Sharpshooter," and this was after weeks of practice and instruction.
* Nearly all of Oswald's fellow Marines who were asked to comment on his shooting ability expressed the view that he was not a very good shot. Several of them, in fact, said he was a very poor shot. (And apparently none of them described him as an excellent shot.)
* A WC staffer (Wesley Liebeler) stated in an internal Commission memo that critical persons would not take the Commission's claims about Oswald's marksmanship seriously.
* Monty Lutz, a former member of the HSCA's firearms panel and an expert rifleman in his own right, stated during the 1986 mock Oswald trial sponsored by a British television company that to his knowledge no one had ever duplicated Oswald's alleged shooting feat.
* The WC leaned toward the view that its alleged lone gunman did not fire until frame 210 of the Zapruder film. If the supposed single assassin didn't fire until Z210, then he would have had between 4.8 and 5.6 seconds to score two hits out of three shots at a moving target using a bolt-action rifle.
* The only way WC supporters can "expand" the alleged lone gunman's firing time from 5.8 to 8.2/8.4 seconds is to assume that he fired at around Z160 and that he completely missed, not only Kennedy, but the entire limousine. (The limousine was less than 140 feet from the sixth-floor gunman at Z160.)
* The WC expressed strong skepticism about the idea that its lone gunman would have missed the limousine with his first and closest shot.
* The world-class, Master-rated riflemen who took part in the WC's rifle tests expressed considerable criticism of the alleged murder weapon. They did not view it as a high quality rifle, and they found its bolt to be difficult and its trigger pull to be rather odd.
* In the 1967 CBS rifle test, which was designed to test "the Warren Commission's version of the shooting," not one of the eleven participating expert marksmen scored at least two hits out of three shots on his first attempt. Seven of them failed to do so on ANY of their attempts. Oswald would have had only one attempt.
* Oswald's notebook contained the word "microdots," a common spy technique of photographically reducing information to a small dot.
* An unregistered Minox camera was found among Oswald's belongings. Cameras of this type were reportedly used in spy work. Kurt Lohn, who was formerly in charge of Minox distribution in New York City, informed newsman Earl Golz of the DALLAS MORNING NEWS that the serial number of the Minox camera found among Oswald's possessions did NOT exist among any Minox cameras distributed for commercial sale in the United States. The FBI tried to have the Dallas police change their reports so as to remove the references to the camera and to replace them with the entry of "light meter."
* The day after the assassination a call was intercepted in Dallas between Ruth Paine's home and Michael Paine's office. In the FBI report on this conversation, it states that a male and female were talking, that the male said he did not feel Oswald was responsible for the crime (though he felt Oswald had done the shooting), and that the male then said, "We both know who is responsible." Ruth Paine was the one who arranged for Oswald to work at the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). It was also Ruth Paine who arranged for Marina Oswald to live with her while Marina and Lee were separated. Michael Paine held a security clearance and worked for a defense contractor.
* When Oswald applied for a tourist card at the Mexican consulate in New Orleans, the man in line in front of him, was William Gaudet, who worked for the CIA. Oswald's tourist card was number 24085; Gaudet's was 24084. Eight days after the assassination the FBI claimed there was no record of who had obtained the tourist card before Oswald's. This claim was proven false in 1975 when, due to a bureaucratic blunder, the name of the card's owner was revealed.
* Gaudet told the HSCA that on one occasion he saw Oswald talking on a street corner with Guy Banister, an ultra-conservative former FBI agent with ties to the anti-Castro movement and the CIA.
* Several of Oswald's "Fair Play for Cuba" handbills were stamped with the address of 544 Camp Street. This was the location where Banister and the Cuban Revolutionary Council, a militant anti-Castro group set up by the CIA, maintained their offices.
* According to an FBI report, G. W. Gill, an attorney for Mafia kingfish Carlos Marcello and Santos Trafficante, told David Ferrie's roommate, Layton Martens, that when Oswald was arrested by the Dallas police, Oswald was carrying a library card with Ferrie's name on it. The report was based on an interview with Martens himself. David Ferrie worked for Marcello, was involved with CIA-backed anti-Castro Cubans, and was a fanatical opponent of President Kennedy. On one occasion, Ferrie had to be removed from the podium in the middle of a speech for making virulent, inflammatory anti-Kennedy remarks. An FBI report observed that on occasion Ferrie had said Kennedy "ought to be shot."
* According to investigators from New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison's office, Mrs. Doris Eames, a neighbor of Oswald's, told them that Ferrie came by her house after the assassination asking if she had any information regarding Oswald's library card. Mrs. Eames told British investigative journalist Anthony Summers in 1978 that Ferrie was so nervous he appeared nearly out of his mind. That same year, Mrs. Jesse Garner, Oswald's former landlady, told an HSCA investigator that Ferrie visited her home and asked if she had come across the library card Oswald had used when he was living in one of her apartments.
* In 1975, Penn Jones, a leading assassination researcher, received an anonymously mailed envelope from Mexico City which contained two letters, one of which was a copy of a handwritten letter signed "Lee Harvey Oswald." The letter is dated November 8, 1963, and is addressed to a "Mr. Hunt." The note reads as follows:
I would like information concerning my position.
I am asking only for information. I am suggesting that we discuss the matter fully before any steps are taken by me or anyone else.
Thank you.
Lee Harvey Oswald
Handwriting experts retained by the HSCA were unable to come to a firm conclusion about the authenticity of the note. However, three private handwriting experts consulted by the DALLAS MORNING NEWS unanimously concluded the writing was Oswald's.
The note was mailed from Mexico City. Some researchers have suggested the note was addressed to E. Howard Hunt, a former CIA officer who has made no secret of his hatred for Kennedy, while others have suggested it was addressed to oil tycoon H. L. Hunt, who is discussed below.
* On November 9, 1963, Oswald wrote a letter to the Soviet embassy in Washington, D.C., in which he said, "I could not take a chance on requesting a new visa unless I used my real name, so I returned to the United States."
* Jack Ruby killed Oswald while Oswald was being transferred in broad daylight, in the middle of the day, in the basement of the Dallas police station, which was supposed to be a secure area.
* The HSCA concluded Ruby's killing of Oswald was not "spontaneous," and that Ruby probably entered the basement with assistance.
* The HSCA found what it viewed as compelling evidence that Ruby had extensive ties with the Mafia. For the first few weeks after the shooting, Ruby was commonly characterized as a gangster, as a man who was involved with the Mafia. On 11/26/63, four days after the assassination, the CHICAGO TRIBUNE ran a story on Ruby's Mafia activity and connections in that city.
* Mafia man Johnny Roselli reportedly met with Ruby twice in the two months leading up to the assassination. Roselli was involved with Mafia kingfish Santos Trafficante and Sam Giancana in the CIA-Mafia assassination plots against Fidel Castro.
* Dallas police sergeant Patrick Dean, who was reportedly close to the city's Mob boss, Joe Civello, failed a lie detector test with regard to his reassignment of police guards away from the elevators and a door to a stairway next to the stairs just before Ruby shot Oswald.
* Former Dallas police officer Billy Grammer has reported that on the night before Ruby killed Oswald, he received a call from Ruby at police headquarters warning that Oswald would be shot the following evening. Grammer says the caller did not identify himself, but that he is sure the voice was Jack Ruby's. Grammer claims he was well acquainted with Ruby. Grammer further reports that Ruby seemed to be aware of all the plans to transfer on Sunday from police headquarters to the Dallas County Jail, that he knew about the decoy vehicle assignment, and was aware of the approximate time the transfer would occur.
* Two WC staffers wrote the following in an internal Commission memo:
In short, we believe that the possibility exists, based on evidence already available, that Ruby was involved in illegal dealings with Cuban elements who might have had contact with Oswald.
* According to an 11/25/63 Associated Press report, William Crowe, an entertainer who had performed at Ruby's Carousel Club, told an AP reporter he was "positive" he had seen Oswald in the club. DALLAS MORNING NEWS reporter Kent Biffle said Crowe told him the same thing several days later.
* Karen Carlin, who had been a dancer at Ruby's club, told FBI agent Roger Warner on 11/24/63 that "she was under impression that Lee Oswald, Jack Ruby, and other individuals unknown to her, were involved in a plot to assassinate President Kennedy."
* Another Ruby dancer, Janet Conforto, told Dallas newsmen shortly after the assassination that she had seen Oswald in Ruby's club. Yet another Ruby dancer, Kathy Kay, told the DALLAS TIMES HERALD the same thing in 1975.
* Four Dallas deputy constables told the DALLAS MORNING NEWS in 1976 that shortly after the assassination they examined a box of handwritten notes and other papers in the Dallas County Courthouse that linked Ruby to Oswald.
* In 1990 the Attorney General of Texas, Jim Mattox, announced that his mother had told him she once saw Ruby and Oswald eating dinner together in the restaurant where she worked.
* The Secret Service failed to employ a number of standard protection procedures for the Dallas motorcade. The HSCA found the SS's protective measures for the motorcade were deficient. Among other things, the Committee said:
Surprisingly, the security measure used in the prior motorcades during the same Texas visit show that the deployment of motorcycles in Dallas by the Secret Service may have been UNIQUELY INSECURE. (Emphasis added)
In film footage of other presidential motorcades, it is seen that police motorcycle escorts rode on both sides and in front of the limousine during those events, forming a shield around the car and making it harder for a potential assassin or assassins to shoot the president. This was not done during the Dallas motorcade, and in fact security for the Dallas motorcade was reduced the day before the assassination.
* One or more senior military officers chose three poorly qualified, inexperienced military doctors to perform President Kennedy's autopsy, when much more capable and experienced doctors were readily available.
* Dr. James Humes, the chief autopsy pathologist, burned the original autopsy report shortly after hearing Oswald was dead, and without making a photographic copy of it.
* The HSCA's medical panel concluded the autopsy on the President was inadequate. Private forensic experts have said the autopsy was a severely flawed post-mortem examination.
* One of the autopsy pathologists said under oath in the Clay Shaw trial in 1969 that a senior military officer prevented him from performing a crucial autopsy procedure.
* A role of film taken during the autopsy by a medical corpsman was seized and destroyed by a Secret Service agent.
* Important photographs taken during the autopsy, some of which were apparently mentioned by one of the autopsy pathologists, are missing. (The medical witness interviews conducted by the ARRB leave no doubt about this fact.)
* Dr. John Ebersole, the radiologist at the autopsy, told HSCA investigators that a sizable fragment of occipital bone was missing from Kennedy's head and arrived late that night from Dallas. The occiput is located at the back of the skull. Yet, the autopsy photographs of the back of the head, which were supposedly taken at or before the start of the autopsy, show the occipital region intact. (Many researchers believe the autopsy photos have been altered.)
* Over forty witnesses, many of them trained medical personnel, who saw President Kennedy's head wounds, said the large defect was in the right rear part of the head, in the right occipital-parietal region. A large wound in the back of the head indicates a shot from the front.
* Two federal agents who attended the autopsy told the ARRB that the autopsy photos of the back of the head were not accurate, and that they recalled seeing a large defect in the right rear part of the skull. The agents suggested a flap of scalp was pulled over the right-rear defect before the photos were taken.
* Dr. J. Thornton Boswell, one of the autopsy pathologists, told HSCA investigators that the rear entry wound was right next to the external occipital protuberance and that part of that wound was contained in a fragment of bone that did not arrive from Dallas until late that night.
* During an interview with HSCA investigators, Dr. Finck questioned how one of the alleged autopsy photos of the back of the head had been established as having been taken at the autopsy.
* Dr. George Burkley, the President's personal doctor, communicated through his attorney to the HSCA's chief counsel that he was aware of information that proved there must have been more than one person involved in the assassination. Dr. Burkley volunteered to disclose this information to the Committee. Dr. Burkley saw the President's body at Parkland Hospital in Dallas and during the autopsy. The letter that Dr. Burkley's attorney sent to the HSCA at Dr. Burkley's request was released by the ARRB. To date no record has been found that the HSCA sought to obtain the information Dr. Burkley offered to provide.
* The WC said the wound in President Kennedy's back was at the base of the neck. Dr. Humes placed the wound in this location, at the base of the neck, in the Rydberg Navy medical drawing. The HSCA, on the other hand, placed the wound nearly two inches lower than where it appears in the Rydberg drawing. The President's death certificate, which is marked "verified," places the wound at the third thoracic vertebra (T3). On the night of the autopsy, Dr. Boswell prepared an autopsy face sheet diagram in which he placed the wound at or near T3. The bullet holes in the back of the President's shirt and coat place the wound at or near T3. Several witnesses who saw the body said the back wound was well below the neck. One of those witnesses was Dr. Ebersole, who said the wound was at T4. Three federal agents who saw the body drew wound diagrams for the HSCA. Those diagrams were recently released, and all three place the back wound near T3. The current single-bullet theory, which is the cornerstone of the lone-gunman scenario, is based on the assumption that the back wound was no lower than where the HSCA placed it, that is, no lower than T1, and that Kennedy was leaning 20-25 degrees forward. If the single-bullet theory is invalid, then there had to be more than one gunman.
* The chief of the HSCA's forensic pathology panel, Dr. Michael Baden, admitted the back wound was slightly BELOW the throat wound. (He went on to claim that the bullet still could have come from the TSBD's sixth-floor window if Kennedy had been leaning markedly forward when the missile struck. But no photo or footage shows Kennedy leaning as far forward as Baden and others have claimed he was leaning.)
* Dr. David Mantik, a highly qualified radiation oncologist and physicist, studied the original autopsy x-rays and photographs at the National Archives, and concluded no bullet could have gone straight from the back wound to the throat wound without smashing right through the spine or without causing massive lung damage. The x-rays show no such damage to the spine or lungs.
* The two persons who claimed to have found CE 399, which is the so-called "magic bullet" that allegedly went through Kennedy and Connally, both said the missile had a pointed tip, whereas CE 399 has a round tip.
* On the day of the assassination, Dr. Malcolm Perry, the surgeon who performed the tracheostomy on the President's throat, said twice on national television that the throat wound was an entrance wound. When interviewed a short time later, he was asked about the report that the alleged sole assassin fired from a building which was to the rear of the limousine. Dr. Perry replied by suggesting the President must have been turned toward the building when the bullet struck his throat.
* Dr. Charles Carrico, who saw the throat wound before the tracheostomy was performed over it, described the wound as a "penetrating wound" in his 11/22/63 medical report.
* On the night of the autopsy, all three of the autopsy pathologists concluded, after extensive, prolonged probing, both with fingers and with a surgical probe, that the back wound had no point of exit. About half of the probing was done after the chest organs had been removed. James Jenkins, one of the medical technicians at the autopsy who witnessed the procedure, has reported he could see the surgical probe pushing against the lining of the chest cavity. Says Jenkins,
I remember looking inside the chest cavity and I could see the probe . . . through the pleura [the lining of the chest cavity] . . . . You could actually see where it was making an indentation . . . where it was pushing the skin up. . . . There was no entry into the chest cavity. . . . No way that that [the bullet] could have exited in the front because it was then low in the chest cavity. . . .
* The NEW YORK TIMES, on 12/18/63, quoted a source it believed was familiar with the autopsy as saying that the bullet which struck the President in the back "penetrated two to three inches." Five weeks later, the TIMES said the bullet "hit the President in the back of his right shoulder, SEVERAL INCHES BELOW THE COLLAR LINE. THAT BULLET LODGED IN HIS SHOULDER" (emphasis added). In accordance with this report, the WASHINGTON POST reported on 12/18/63 that during the autopsy a bullet "WAS FOUND DEEP IN HIS SHOULDER" (emphasis added).
* Two medical technicians at the autopsy have stated that a bullet rolled out from the area of the President's back when the body was removed from the casket prior to the autopsy. One of the med-techs said the bullet rolled out from the back, while the other says it rolled out from the sheets. A third med-tech from the autopsy has said he remembers personnel at the autopsy talking that night about a bullet that had fallen from the sheets.
* Admiral David P. Osborne, who was in attendance at the autopsy, reported that a bullet rolled out from the "clothing" that was wrapped around the President's body, and that he actually handled the missile. The HSCA asserted that Osborne "thought" he saw a bullet roll out, but that he later said he wasn't sure when told no one else at the autopsy recalled such an event. Admiral Osborne told researcher and author David Lifton that he and the HSCA had disagreed over the matter. Said Osborne,
. . . I told them [HSCA investigators] that this was the way I remembered it, and they said: "Well, it must be wrong, because the Secret Service testified that the bullet was found in the hospital in Parkland, and brought back to Washington." And so I said: "Well, if that's true, then they brought it back to the morgue, because I had that bullet in my hand, and looked at it."
According to the official record of the chain of possession of the bullet that was found at Parkland Hospital, that missile was never taken to Bethesda Hospital (where the autopsy was performed).
The HSCA's claim that no one else at the autopsy recalled seeing a missile fall from the sheets wrapped around the body is incorrect. As mentioned above, a medical technician who was at the autopsy has said he remembers seeing this happen, while another med-tech says he recalls discussion among personnel at the autopsy about a bullet having fallen from the sheets.
Admiral Osborne told Lifton the bullet fell from the clothing wrapped around the body when the body was removed from the casket.
* A security representative from the CIA, Regis Blahut, was detained and polygraphed for opening an HSCA safe and for handling at least one autopsy photograph without permission. Only after failing three polygraph tests did Blahut finally admit he had handled the autopsy photo. Though Blahut's illegal action was attributed to "curiosity," Blahut later blurted to a reporter "There are other things involved that are detrimental to other things." The CIA fired Blahut as a result of the incident, but the matter was not investigated further.
* HSCA polygraph experts studied Jack Ruby's polygraph and found it was very ineptly done. They found that the polygrapher ignored standard procedure in a way that made it harder to detect falsehood. Yet, even with the polygraph's sensitivity turned down (instead of up, as it should have been), the registered responses indicated Ruby was lying when he denied he had no role in the assassination. The HSCA polygraph experts stated the following in their report regarding the reaction to the question, "Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?":
In fact, the reactions to the preceding question--(Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?)--showed the largest valid GSR reaction in test series No. 1. In addition, there is a constant suppression of breathing and a rise in blood pressure at the time of this crucial relevant question. From this test, it appeared to the panel that Ruby was possibly lying when answering "no" to the question, "Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?" This is contrary to Herndon's opinion that Ruby was truthful when answering that question. (8 HSCA 217-218)
* Numerous witnesses complained that the transcripts of their interviews with the FBI and/or with WC staffers were inaccurate, and in some cases that the transcripts significantly misreported important parts of their testimony.
* Most of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza who expressed an opinion on the subject did not believe all the shots came solely from the Book Depository.
* At least fifty Dealey Plaza witnesses believed shots were fired from in front of the President's limousine. A number of these witnesses said they were certain at least one shot came from in front of the limousine.
* Four policemen were told by bystanders that shots had come from the picket fence on the grassy knoll, which was to the right front of the limousine during the shooting.
* Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig and motorist Richard Robinson said they saw a man run down across the grassy incline in front of the Book Depository and get into a light-colored Rambler station wagon after the President had been shot.
* Richard Randolph Carr, watching from a nearby building, said he saw a man in a tan jacket on the top floor of the TSBD shortly before the assassination, and that he saw the same man a few minutes afterward walk "very fast" down Houston Street, turn the corner onto Commerce Street, and then get into a light-colored Rambler station wagon.
* Three witnesses who saw a man in the southeast corner window of the sixth floor of the Book Depository said the man's hair was blond or light colored. Oswald's hair was brown.
* All five of the witnesses who reported seeing a gunman in the sixth-floor window of the TSBD said the man was wearing a light-colored shirt. But Oswald wore a rust-brown shirt to work that day, and a policeman saw Oswald wearing that shirt less than 90 seconds after that shots were fired.
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About the Author: Michael T. Griffith is a two-time graduate of the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, and of the U.S. Air Force Technical Training School in San Angelo, Texas, and is the author of four books on Mormonism and ancient texts. His articles on the assassination have appeared in such publications as THE ASSASSINATION CHRONICLES, the JFK DEEP POLITICS QUARTERLY, and DALLAS '63. He is also the author of the book COMPELLING EVIDENCE: A NEW LOOK AT THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY (Grand Prairie, TX: JFK-Lancer Productions and Publications, 1996).
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/the_critics/g..._the_facts.html
QUOTE
JUST THE FACTS: ESTABLISHED FACTS ABOUT THE JFK ASSASSINATION THAT POINT TO CONSPIRACY
Can any of these "facts" be substantiated in any way? I seriously doubt a lot of these accusations. They sound an awful lot like falacies made up by someone trying to sell a book.
Also, a lot of those "facts" neither prove or disprove, or point to a conspiracy theory in any way. How does a mis-report of the color of Oswald's hair or color of the shirt he was wearing do anything to prove there was a second shooter?
QUOTE(turbonium @ Sep 11 2005, 06:37 AM) [snapback]838059[/snapback]
One thing for certain - the driver was involved. After JFK and Connally had both clearly been shot, which the driver sees when he first turns around. Instead of speeding off immediately after seeing this, the driver again turns around to look behind at JFK, and slows (some witnesses say stopped) the limo, until the head shot, with the driver still turned around. Only then does he speed off. That in itself is grounds for his involvement.
Oh please. That's a perfectly plausible reaction. Driver hears something out of the ordinary, turns around to see something completely out of the ordinary (the president holding his throat), takes some time to wonder what the hell is going on, then sees the presidents head explode. At that time, he fully realizes whats going on and floors it.
You honestly think that the driver wouldn't take any time whatsoever to be shocked or confused at the extremely strange situation? C'mon. Hilarious that people completely rule out the possibility that the driver was, in fact, a human being with human reactions and emotions. In fact, if the driver would've immediately gunned it the split second he heard the shot, I'd actually then be suspicious of his involvement. If he took no time at all to be shocked, then he'd surely have to know the shot was coming.
This is a link to a page that proves the zapruder film was tampered with and changed. Overwhelming evidence of a cover-up by people in very high places.
Fake Zapruder Film
QUOTE(stephen84 @ Jul 18 2006, 02:12 PM) [snapback]1274651[/snapback]
This is a link to a page that proves the zapruder film was tampered with and changed. Overwhelming evidence of a cover-up by people in very high places.
Fake Zapruder Film
I'm going to have to spend some time looking at this link. Right now it's pretty confusing to me, and it's almost time for me to get out of here. Maybe tomorrow I'll be able to analyze it a bit more.
Thanks for the link.
Okay, I’ve had some time to analyze this link. I did try to read the contents in an objective manner, though I have to confess that the idea of the faked video seemed pretty unrealistic to me at first.
First off, the author refers to “scientists and researchers” without ever giving a name, which immediately throws up a red flag in my mind:
QUOTE
In the 1990s, researchers started to realize that there was a fourth possible explanation. Zapruder’s film might also be a part of the lies and cover-up that agencies of the U.S. Government had weaved around the JFK assassination!
QUOTE
Scientists examined the Zapruder film. They found that, while most of it looks completely genuine, some of the images are impossible. They violate the laws of physics. They could not have come from Zapruder’s home movie camera.
QUOTE
The scientists also proved that Zapruder’s film was not just changed a little bit. The whole film is a fake!
Also, I found this amusing:
QUOTE
In the end, you have to decide for yourself what to believe. But don’t just believe what the U.S. Government tells you!
Believe whatever you want, just as long as it aligns itself with my opinion.
QUOTE
When the forgers made the Zapruder film, they needed to use genuine film of the limousine and the people in it, to make it look realistic—they couldn’t just get Warner Brothers to draw cartoons! They cut and paste this genuine film into a new background film of Elm Street.
Maybe it’s possible, but it seems to me that placing the limo in the precise location on the street, traveling at the exact speed, and getting the natural lighting to perfectly match in a perfectly fluid motion seems a daunting task.
QUOTE
Some changes could be made. They could cut people out and move them around a bit. They could make copies of arms, legs and bodies, and stick them back together to make them perform actions that the real people never did.
Even more farfetched. I don’t think, especially in the mid ‘60’s, that this could be pulled off without it looking pretty obvious.
QUOTE
Eyewitnesses overwhelmingly reported that, during the assassination, the limousine braked suddenly and came to a stop, before accelerating away again. Some people have also seen another film of the assassination—not yet seen by the public—which shows this stop very clearly. But Zapruder’s film doesn’t show the limousine stopping at all! It just keeps on driving down Elm Street the entire time.
Here’s where I just can’t help but to want to completely discredit this entire site. Supposedly there exists some mystery film that the public hasn’t yet seen, and only that film shows the limo stopping? I think the author conveniently forgets that the Zapruder film is not the only video in existence of the assassination. And when is it more logical to believe the images on a video one hasn’t seen over a video one can plainly see?
It seems that the rest of the “evidence” presented by this site assumes that the limo did indeed stop, and that framesof the Zapruder film were inserted and/or completely forged to cover up this fact. I think it’s obvious the limo did slow down, but to state it stopped is speculative.
Sidebar:
It just occurred to me that the original Zapruder film (the actual film pulled out of the camera) must reside somewhere. Wouldn’t it be easy enough to look it over for evidence of tampering? Surely if it was spliced numerous times, it would be evident to the naked eye. And I’m also sure that it’s been examined many times over the years, and no one’s reported any evidence of tampering until the 90’s. Seems a bit farfetched to me.
[font=Arial Black][size=7] Well, here's my two cents worth. In the 1990's I interviewed Richard Helms. He admitted to me that persons involved with the CIA and the Watergate burglary were involved in the Kennedy assassination. He's what I term a credible person. I have an audiotape of him calling me and leaving a message to call him back - so I can prove we did talk.
QUOTE(turbonium @ Sep 7 2005, 06:27 AM) [snapback]831193[/snapback]
Some things to point out, Skeptic102..
In your first post, the bullet trajectory and positions of JFK and Connally are inaccurate, as can be seen in the Zapruder film. Connally was not twisting his torso to the right, in front of JFK, at the time claimed to be when the impact occurred. Nor was he well to the left in front of JFK in the limo. Look at these frames...
It's obvious Connally, in front of JFK in the limo, is not aligned towards the left side of JFK. And when he actually does turn to the right, it is after he is hit, and even has his left hand resting on the top edge of the right side door, which shows he is not sitting toward the center of the limo, but rather toward the right side of it.
Also, there was an entry hole in JFK's back, at least 5-6" down his back from his neck line, and to the right side of his spine. This bullet was on a downward trajectory, coming from the right side of the limo, if it actually came from the 6th floor of the TSBD. It could not have moved upwards and to the left within JFK's body, not hitting any bone, then forward as it exited through JFK's throat, then gone downwards into Connally's lower back, shattering his ribs, exited his chest downwards, through his wrist, shattering his wrist bone , and lodge in his right thigh - and somehow, then end up on a vacant stretcher by itself in Parkland Hospital.
The only flaw in the bullet was in the photo you posted - a slight flattening at the base (bottom) of the bullet. The nose and all the rest of the jacket of the bullet are virtually pristine. After shattering bone two times? And after creating SEVEN separate wounds on two people? Not a chance.
QUOTE(TK0001 @ Jul 19 2006, 05:10 AM) [snapback]1275729[/snapback]
Okay, I’ve had some time to analyze this link. I did try to read the contents in an objective manner, though I have to confess that the idea of the faked video seemed pretty unrealistic to me at first.
First off, the author refers to “scientists and researchers” without ever giving a name, which immediately throws up a red flag in my mind:
Also, I found this amusing:
Believe whatever you want, just as long as it aligns itself with my opinion.
Maybe it’s possible, but it seems to me that placing the limo in the precise location on the street, traveling at the exact speed, and getting the natural lighting to perfectly match in a perfectly fluid motion seems a daunting task.
Even more farfetched. I don’t think, especially in the mid ‘60’s, that this could be pulled off without it looking pretty obvious.
Here’s where I just can’t help but to want to completely discredit this entire site. Supposedly there exists some mystery film that the public hasn’t yet seen, and only that film shows the limo stopping? I think the author conveniently forgets that the Zapruder film is not the only video in existence of the assassination. And when is it more logical to believe the images on a video one hasn’t seen over a video one can plainly see?
It seems that the rest of the “evidence” presented by this site assumes that the limo did indeed stop, and that framesof the Zapruder film were inserted and/or completely forged to cover up this fact. I think it’s obvious the limo did slow down, but to state it stopped is speculative.
Sidebar:
It just occurred to me that the original Zapruder film (the actual film pulled out of the camera) must reside somewhere. Wouldn’t it be easy enough to look it over for evidence of tampering? Surely if it was spliced numerous times, it would be evident to the naked eye. And I’m also sure that it’s been examined many times over the years, and no one’s reported any evidence of tampering until the 90’s. Seems a bit farfetched to me.
In this link, if you scroll down a couple inches to where it shows the short clip of the limo driver, you have to admit it appears he brings his left hand up with something dark in it, aims in Kennedy's direction, and his hand appears to kick back.
Also, with all the people there that day saying the car very noticably slowed down as the driver turned around, which is also when the fatal headshot took place, why doesn't the Zapruder film show the car slowing down at all?
i think he was shot from the grassy knoll
I believe he was shot from the schoolbook depository and the grassy knoll, with the fatal shot coming from Greer, the driver.
Two things bother me about the lone assassin theory, and they aren't scientific in nature, they are common sense based:
1.) quote skeptic102
"Well, he didnt aim perfect at all. Remember he MISSED the first shot and it ended up hitting the curb. "
- First shots are almost always the most accurate. The idea that a "marksman" could miss the whole car with his first shot and then follow up quickly with a neck and head shot seems very illogical. I mean, the first shot didn't hit Kennedy in the shoulder or something - it missed the whole car.
2.) From the vantage point of the 6th floor of the TSB, why wouldn't a lone gunman take the shot when the car was coming almost directly at him and is closer with less variables instead of waiting for the car to turn and take a more distant shot with the car turning slightly and going downhill?
- The logical answer to that is the triangulation of fire theory. A simple viewing of an overhead picture of Dealey Plaza shows that the closest point to the road with adequate cover to fire from is the fence on the grassy knoll. That's the shot that had to be protected as it would have the best chance for success. Fire had to be held for that reason.
I'm in full agreement with the original post. Pending new evidence, there is just no reason at all to believe that Oswald did not act alone.
On the other hand, my wife thinks Kennedy lives on the Moon with Elvis and Walt Disney.
Harte
I'm seriously not sure which theory is correct, I'll just bring forward my findings and observations.
An animation I've found (and never seen or heard about this finding before) shows the lapel of connally flying forward at the point of the first shot. Later and beyond this animation connelly's left hand goes up to this exact point where the wound is.
And here is a still of 224 where connally's lapel is clearly sticking outwards
Now then, can anybody really argue that this was caused by the supposed frontal neck shot kennedy reacts to when he appears from behind the sign?
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Please follow these instructions
click the link below and make both this window and the youtube window that opened when you clicked the link into smaller windows, have one window on one half of your screen and the other window on the other half of your screen so you can read this forum and view the video at the same time.
View the video here
frames 224 - 236 show a reaction from both kennedy and connally.
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Kennedy's reaction.
Right hand
Moves up and covers mouth. For some reason his elbow is raised making his arm horizontal. Think about it (hell, act it out yourself if you want to), you raise your hand up to your mouth in shock, your elbow is towards your side. I'm not sure why he does this and would be happy to hear your suggestions.
Left hand
Moves up towards the neck area and then moves away. Either his hand goes up towards the wound and then away, or it goes to his neck tie and he pulls the tie loose to help himself breath. If it's the later of the too, his reaction is seriously quick. In an event like that, human reaction for self preservation takes over and you no longer think in the normal manner, so the normal reaction is to cover the wound (just like connally, but we'll get to that).
Head
Now once he's covered his mouth he makes either a coughing action or a vomiting action (wretching as I know it). Given that a bullet has just gone through his larynx you wouldn't blame him for doing this action (like I said before, bodies natural reaction takes over). The bullet going through his larynx would have sent a shock wave out of his mouth, the vaccuum behind the bullet causes the most damage and this would have caused a shock wave, air, saliva particles, blood particles to fly in both directions down and up the larynx, ergo the coughing action you see.
Connally's reaction.
Lapel
Although this is technically not connally's bodily reaction it is worth mentioning. Note the moment before he reacts to his wound the lapel flies forward (just like in the animated gif above). Before the lapel is flat and you can see white shirt between his suit and his tie on his right, then at the point of reaction (infact one frame before, accounting for human reaction time) the white seen between the suit and the tie becomes black as the lapel flys forward. But I do not think it was the bullet that caused this, please read on as i note this two paragraphs later.
Hat
Again not technically connally's reaction, but worth a mention. The hat flies forwards and upwards. Imagine holding a hat like he is, if a bullet comes flying through your body, forwards through your wrist towards your hand. It's going to send your hand outwards away from your body, the hat then flys upwards due to the bending of the brim of the hat. Connally is still holding the hat after this hit (which is suprising really, a shot to the wrist would probably make me drop what ever I'm holding). Although you might have heard people say "how can he hold his hat with a broken wrist?" to be honest I would say that was the position his hand was in when shot, he would be reluctant to move his hand or wrist at all as the motion of the tendons would cause considerable pain. Plus I would say a bullet to the wrist would not necessarily cause the hand to no longer grip onto a hat. Also, the hat is laying on his lap so he is not fully supporting the wiehgt of the hat with the grip of his hand. Normall bodily reaction to a wound or hit of any kind is to tense up and not move the area of pain.
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Now if you watch the video keeping in mind these two paragraphs above, you will see a flaw. The lapel seems to fly up, then a frame passes by and then the hat in connelly's hand flys upwards (you could say it's the time for connally to react to the shot, I would say no it isn't), also kennedy'd reaction is later at this point (lapel... frames gap... reaction). Look at the video again, but try to glaze over it so to speak (try to observe the whoel event all at the same time and not focus on one specific point), try to see that the lapel flaps upwards, then both kennedy and connally and his hat move in sync. Why the lapel flys up I'm not sure, could simply be the wind. Please add any suggestion on this matter.
After watching the video, all the parts I've mentioned above seem to happen in this order.
Lapel
Kennedy's right hand moves up to his mouth, same time connally's hat flys upwards
Kennedy's left hand grabs his tie (or covers the wound)
Connally's hat flops back down
Kennedy pulls his tie loose with his left hand (index and middle finger, like you normally would)
That seems the order to me.
Also view this (parental disgretion is advised), it's an autopsy image (i've never seen before) showing the line the bullet could have taken, and I ersonally believe it is the bullet I've been talking about here.
Autopsy Picture
You can't deny, the hole in the upper part of his back is smaller than the hole in his neck, which means the back was entry and the neck was exit. I personally can't see how people have been arguing over this fact when you can see the height of the back wound is perfectly high enough to take the shot from either the depository or the building nextdoor. (i'm starting to sound like a lone gunman believer now)
Please note
I'm with the conspiracy theorists on this one, always have been. My reason for this is not by the event itself, but by the suspicious circumstances around this whole event. There's too much dodgy suicides, strange unprocedural occurences, mis-reportings, witness observation conflictions, supposed human errors and more, for this to be a lone gunman theory (actually, not lone gunman theory, I really mean for this to not have some heigher department or agency involvement or knowledge). But having typed all this out, that reaction you see there seems to me to be a single shot (either the first or second shot, i would like it to be the first) from behind.
I say I would like it to be the first shot because I just can't grasp why the first shot would miss completely, it doesn't make sense. The only reason I can think of for missing completely on the first shot is having the safety switch off and pressing the trigger by accident, which sounds very unprofessional to me. I'm open to suggestions, infact I want suggestion because it just doesn't add up to me. I've heard about this whole shot hit the pavement, thing. I really can't figure that part out. Maybe I'm just being dumb and it was oswald, all nervous as hell, bit of a n00b with a rifle and did exactly what I just said, touched trigger too much to set the first shot off, missing, then next shot did all the above, as he was aiming for kennedy's head on this second shot but motion of car caused him to miss-aim, hitting lower than the intended target, then he finally allowed for the motion of car, distance and adjusted his last shot higher, slicing the top section of kennedy's head off, but I still think the head shot was from in front....I think :\.
I'm not sure, like I said I think it's a conspiracy from all the strange occurances around this event. Maybe the government knew about oswalds intentions and let things happen because it rid them of a leader apposed to war, I just don't know.
I'd say that shot I've gone through came from behind, and the head shot came from infront. I only say the front because the crowd reacted after the scene by running towards that picket fence. View this for crowds reaction. They did that reaction for a reason!
Being a believer in a conspiracy doesn't mean you shouldn't question your thoughts and opinions on the matter, and I try to keep an open mind, even to the point of trying to believe what i don't believe (if that makes sense) by observing and using plain logic.
Anyway, I've wattled on for more than I intended here so I'll see what you people have to say about this matter.
Initially, I wasn't going to respond to this topic cuz frankly it's a tired old debate
...but what the hell. Here's my 2 bit (non)cents worth to throw in-My girlfriend's uncle(now deceased) knew L.H. Oswald, as did a few other folks in New Orleans back in the day. He just could not and would not believe that Lee Harvey could pull off shooting John F. Kennedy since he considered Oswald to be such a buffoon
.I once was at Dealey Plaza in Dallas and stood in front of the infamous School Book Depository. I remember looking at the supposed gunman's window from the ground and then looking over to the spot where JFK got shot. It was quite a distance. Just to be able to hit a target from that distance, much less if that target is moving at an unpredictable speed, is quite a feat for someone who supposedly wasn't all that great of a marksman in the military. Damn Oswald, for a lifetime loser you sure succeeded on that one time when it really mattered!
Nick Beef
That's enough noncents for now...
This is all pure nonsense. First, no one saw L.H. Oswald shoot anyone. That is being historically alleged to help push the Lone Gunman theory along, and make it look like Oswald did it all himself.
Second, since no one saw Oswald shoot anyone, how can this whole nonsensical theory be believed in the first place?
Third, there were NUMEROUS eye witnesses who SAW 2-3 men with RIFLES in the grassy knoll that day before, during, and after the shooting. We heard and saw eye witness testimony from people who were there that saw them. Why weren't they interviewed by the dopey Warren commission?
Fourth, speaking of the Warren commission, why did not anyone question the fact that this commission was biased from the get-go? It is rather difficult to believe that any body of supposedly
impartial members can consist of a man who was FIRED by Kennedy himself not long before JFK was assassinated by a cabal of men lurking in secret?
How many people were interviewed by the Warren commission? I believe that it was only three people that were interviewed, and those people did not provide any useful information at all as to what happened that day in Dallas.
The bottom line is this- there are WAY TOO many holes in the "Lone Gunman" nonsensical theory for it to be taken seriously by anyone.
1) No one saw LHO shoot anyone. Finger prints can be easily faked, if they had even bothered to take prints at the scene in the first place.
2) Eyewitnesses there at the scene saw multiple gun men in the infamous grassy knoll area. If there was only a single "lone gunman" why were these gunmen there in hiding?
3) Investigators interviewed members of the Mafia in Europe and found that they KNEW what was to take place and whom was responsible. Mafia Informants working secretly for the
French Police and Scotland Yard told of who was responsible for the hit, and why.
These informants quite specifically said that our own CIA paid for and bought the services of the Mafia here in the US and in Europe to get the job done, and leave no evidence
of the crime or the perpetrators of who did it.
This completely discounts the idiotic Oswald lone gunman theory.
4) Taped conversations of suspected mafia members in New Orleans a week before the assassination revealed a plot which was to take place in Dallas.
Those conversations in New Orleans were made a week before the Dallas assassination were done by the FBI and local New Orleans police. One of the voices on that secret taping was,
I believe, David Ferry- a known mafia member. The voices on the recording all talked about "JFK getting a hit on him" in Dallas when he arrives there.
This also completely discounts a single gunman theory as well.
5) The sudden and mysterious deaths of Dorothy Kilgallen, LHO, and Jack Ruby- Oswald's assailant, all point to a massive conspiracy within our Government to silence those who wanted to
uncover the truth about the conspiracy to kill JFK. Many people who took photos of the parade at Dealey plaza were approached and ORDERED at gun point to surrender their evidence
by men who did NOT identify themselves, nor did they show any I.D.
Kilgallen was murdered just hours before she was to interview Jack Ruby in prison. Ruby told Kilgallen that he was going to provide evidence of who paid him to kill Oswald, and the other
things that he knew of the entire JFK assassination conspiracy. When the body of Miss Kilgallen was recovered in her room, the reason of her death was ruled "suicide".
That is also complete and total nonsense. She was about to get the interview of a lifetime, and she kills herself?
Please...
Let's get real here!
She was also silenced by the sinister forces which killed JFK, and later his brother RFK.
Oswald was silenced, as well as Kilgallen, and Ruby.
Quite frankly, anyone who believes that Oswald was the lone gunman, and who did all of this himself is either very gullible and naive, or just ignorant of the facts.
6) The uncovered memo from a Warren commission member who was told to essentially "make it look like it was a lone gunman" BEFORE the commission began their hearings?
All of these things point unequivocally to a massive conspiracy to murder our President.
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posted by The D'Anne Burley Show at 3:19 PM
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